Hamas forcefully knocked down the barrier, and now Egypt is closing it back up.

You don’t think a sovereign nation has the ability to close & seal its border should it choose to do so? You don’t believe Egypt deliberately chose to allow its border to be breached for two weeks in sympathy with Gazan suffering? You don’t believe Egypt has agreed in principle to freer flow across its border as a price for Hamas’ agreement not to breach the border again?

Israel is being attacked daily!

Yes, by several hundred militants firing rockets and mortars which land mostly ineffectually in Israel. Israel’s response is to cause immense suffering to 1.5 million innocent civilians. That is what I meant by Israel’s unwillingness to show mercy. Jews are a people of mercy and Israel’s treatment of Gaza is a betrayal of Jewish values regardless of the reprehensible actions of a very small minority of the Gaza population.

Israel gives full rights to its own citizens of every religion

What in heaven’s name have you been reading and where did you find such bogus information? Are you reading Israeli foreign ministry press releases? My God man, read up on Israeli social history & you’d realize how complete erroneous such a comment is. Israel is a country which PROFESSES to grant equal rights to all its citizens regardless of religion. But it has not actually done so.

Gazans wanted independence, and like those Algerians, they are finding out that it’s not as great as they thought it would be.

Gazans didn’t want a siege to the death. They wanted a Palestinian state. Instead they got the equivalent of the Warsaw ghetto though so far without the final liquidation.

You also can’t commit war against another state, demand separation from it, and then act so indignant when that state actually decides to break off relations.

This too is bogus. Israel hasn’t merely “broken off relations.” It is legally responsible for Gaza since it not only provides much of its electricity, water & other utilities, but also controls ingress and egress from Gaza territory. It has put Gaza under siege and Gazans have every right to “act so indignant” at such treatment.

You know, it’s quite humorous that you accuse me of only blaming Israel and not condemning the alleged sins of the Arabs when it is actually YOU who blames all the sins on the Arabs and not once has accepted any responsibility on Israel’s part for Palestinian suffering or the Occupation. How do you explain that?

I’m actually kind of surprised you find the term so offensive

Don’t be. ALL progressive Jews detest this phrase. If you actually knew any you’d know that. Clearly you don’t.

many Jews I have met on both sides of the debate have used it.

Name one progressive Jew who has ever called a right-wing Jew “self-hating?”

both Finkelstein and Chomsky bash Israel at every turn, often unjustly

Finkelstein and Chomsky criticize Israeli policy. Such criticism is entirely legitimate. There is much to criticize in Israeli policy. If Israel ever signed a peace agreement with Palestine their criticism would either cease or be greatly muted. They are not opposed to Israel. They are opposed to Israeli policy.

Our debate in this thread has gone on long enough. Any questions I asked above were rhetorical & do not require a response. Feel free to comment in other threads on other subjects if you choose. But don’t comment further in this thread.

“allowed it to be breached”? Hamas forcefully knocked down the barrier, and now Egypt is closing it back up. And “Israel would never show such mercy?” Israel is being attacked daily! Egypt is not. Israel gives full rights to its own citizens of every religion, Egypt does not. Look, the Gazans wanted independence, and like those Algerians, they are finding out that it’s not as great as they thought it would be. You also can’t commit war against another state, demand separation from it, and then act so indignant when that state actually decides to break off relations. This is part of an overall pattern; Arabs oppress other Arabs, and to the media it’s “business as usual, nothing to see here”. But when Israel or the US does it, it gets microscopic scrutiny from all corners. Did you know that Saudi Arabia has given billions to US universities alone - money that, if they really cared, could have done much to alleviate the Palestinian’s plight instead (Arafat also had hundreds of millions in his personal account when he died). It’s as if the Arab & other Islamic nations are far less interested in actually helping Palestinians than they are in keeping this conflict alive so they can milk it for political gain. Just about every Arab failing is attributed to Israel in some form or another. I have met many Iraqis, some very well educated (including one at Oxford) who blamed the Iraqi war on the “Jews who control America”. Jews are blamed for everything, sometimes even by other Jews, which brings us to the next point.

I have met more self-hating Jews & Arab apologists

If you even come close to hinting that I fall into that category I’ll ban you here so fast yr head will spin. Such terms violate my comment rules & don’t even think of trying it. There are plenty of sites like Little Green Footballs that welcome that kind of propagandistic language. Go there is you want to employ it. And Noam Chomsky & Norman Finkelstein are not self-hating Jews. I don’t know whether you yrself are Jewish. But if you are not, you have absolutely no right to define who is or is not a self-hating Jew. I don’t define for Christians who is a good one & who isn’t & I won’t allow non-Jews to do the same here.

I don’t know you well enough to make that accusation against you, and I’m actually kind of surprised you find the term so offensive, since many Jews I have met on both sides of the debate have used it. But it’s true that the term is not terribly constructive since the definition is rather nebulous, so I’ll refrain from using it. In any case, the actual point I was getting at is that both Finkelstein and Chomsky bash Israel at every turn, often unjustly, and then use their Jewish ancestry as a shield against counter-criticism. I don’t think that’s right.

americangoy said:

Please, don’t hold back. Explain.
Why did we go into Iraq, and why do we stay now as occupiers of a foreign country?

I’m not trying to brush you off, but you can go to my blog, or many other place where I debate the subject in full; I find debates very hard to follow when they start branching off into too many side directions.

Both individuals are proud of being Jewish hence claiming they hate their Jewishness is false. They are yr political enemies so you take the unfortunate short cut of calling them self-haters as if that will somehow discredit the political views you detest.

Yr definition of a proud Jew is one who waves an Israeli flag and sings Hatikvah at the top of their lungs. Theirs’ isn’t. That doesn’t make them self-haters.

I’m not going to get into a long argument about this term. It’s against my comment rules to use it. Period. So don’t.

Sorry, I would love to show you the error of your ways right now but I’m sticking to one debate at a time. And I’ve been right in the middle of it, so I hardly need any lessons from you.”

Please, don’t hold back. Explain.
Why did we go into Iraq, and why do we stay now as occupiers of a foreign country?

Sorry, I would love to show you the error of your ways right now but I’m sticking to one debate at a time. And I’ve been right in the middle of it, so I hardly need any lessons from you. ”

Do tell me please.

1) Why did they start fleeing immediately even before the bread ran out?

There has been a massive flight from Gaza since the Israeli siege. I see no evidence there was such a flight before that. Again, people leave for economic reasons, not ideological ones.

Why don’t you consider the Egyptians to be the ones “sieging” Gaza? After all, it was part of Egypt, and they are fencing them in as well,

Egypt is quite content that Gaza is under siege since it hates Hamas only a little less than Israel does. However, Egypt allowed its border to be breached for over a week out of sympathy for the Gazans’ plight. Israel would never show such mercy.

I have met more self-hating Jews & Arab apologists

If you even come close to hinting that I fall into that category I’ll ban you here so fast yr head will spin. Such terms violate my comment rules & don’t even think of trying it. There are plenty of sites like Little Green Footballs that welcome that kind of propagandistic language. Go there is you want to employ it. And Noam Chomsky & Norman Finkelstein are not self-hating Jews. I don’t know whether you yrself are Jewish. But if you are not, you have absolutely no right to define who is or is not a self-hating Jew. I don’t define for Christians who is a good one & who isn’t & I won’t allow non-Jews to do the same here.

if you consistently condemn one side of the conflict

Look, this is the 3rd time you’ve made this claim & the 3rd time I’ve told you it’s false. So don’t make it again. If you’re too lazy to search this blog then don’t bother writing falsehoods here.

It’s also completely disingenuous to claim that Jews only returned to Israel recently - they had never completely left.

Omigod, you’re going to teach me Jewish history?? I know perfectly well there have always been Jews living in what is now Israel. What any reasonable person would’ve understood was that I said the mass migration of Jews back to Palestine which began at the turn of the 20th century was what began the process of tension & conflict bet. Jews & Arabs.

Yes, I was being SARCASTIC when I referred to Algeria as an “Islamic paradise” (that’s why the word was in quotes). Yes, its not just happening in Algeria, although I don’t know how that’s relevant. The point is that these people who not long ago desperately wanted to get rid of their European masters are now just as desperately trying to get back to them now that things aren’t working out.

Gazans are fleeing Gaza because there is no bread, hardly any medical treatment, no jobs, no travel, no nothing–all this because of the ISRAELI siege. Not because of anything Hamas has done.

hmmm - then a couple of questions:
1) Why did they start fleeing immediately even before the bread ran out?
2) Why don’t you consider the Egyptians to be the ones “sieging” Gaza? After all, it was part of Egypt, and they are fencing them in as well, even bashing heads at the border. And unlike the Israelis, they aren’t being rocketed on a daily basis.

Perhaps you need to do a little reading. Just a suggestion.

Here’s a tip though if you’d bothered to read my About page. I am a Jew. I have lived in Israel.

Like that matters how? I have met more self-hating Jews & Arab apologists than you would believe. If you do any reading you might actually come across some names like Norman Finkelstein or Noam Chomsky. Just being Jewish doesn’t count for much here.

But there are very few blogs that propose a progressive resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That’s what my goal is here. So if you want condemnation of Islam I’m sure you know where to go to find it.

I sincerely with you luck with that, but if you consistently condemn one side of the conflict you may not be treating the situation very fairly, but it is your blog.

Do us a favor & do some reading about the Israeli-Arab conflict (there is a link in my sidebar to my blog store which features many great texts about Zionism and Israeli history) before you make historical errors of the sort you make here. The conflict did not begin in 1949 nor did Arabs start it when it did begin. Jews decided to return to Zion in the early 20th century beginning decades of tension & conflict which culminated in all the current violence we now see.

Yes, LOL, I guess I should read up on the Jewish suicide bombers who revolted against Ottoman and British rule. It’s also completely disingenuous to claim that Jews only returned to Israel recently - they had never completely left.

americangoy said: The ethnic cleansing that was the 1948 war of Israeli independence (from both sides) being characterized as the Arabs only fault also got my blood boiling.

Well, then prepare to have it boiling some more. On May 14, 1948 (not 1949, as a typo on my part) Israel declared independence. The very next day it was attacked by Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq. Even the Arab nations don’t dispute this.

Now I realize that possibly you are a US soldier - it’s the internet, so who knows, could be true.

If you have any doubts, you can refer to some of my flickr photo sets here and here.

Instead what happened was that the “war on terror” was cynically used to manipulate America into an illegal war in Iraq,…

Instead, we now have soldiers dying for business profits. For oil. For an insane neocon ideology.

Sorry, I would love to show you the error of your ways right now but I’m sticking to one debate at a time. And I’ve been right in the middle of it, so I hardly need any lessons from you.

The upbringing, morals and values from ones home and society is much more important than anything that supposedly happened in prison.

That’s horsecrap & you know it. If you don’t think that John McCain’s torture & imprisonment is a deeply traumatic & core experience of his life which has not only defined him as a human being, but broken him in some sense–then you have no idea how such abuse works on the human spirit. McCain’s military background & family history prepared him for the experience in the sense that it allowed him to go on & recover fr. it in some measure & lead a productive life IN SPITE OF it. Al-Harbawi had no such preparation for the torture he endured as a 15 yr old boy.

As for the rest of yr comment you’ve repeated yrself ad nauseum saying the same things you’ve said scores of times before in the comment threads & I’m tired of repeating myself in replying to you. Please do not publish any further in this thread.

The HAMAS and their ideology is what killed Harbawi and turned him into a murderer.

WRONG.

Blaming the occupation doesn’t explain why the suicide bomber phenomenom hasn’t reached the Golan Heights which you undoubtedly consider occupied territory.

I have no idea what yr pt. here is.

The occupation clearly is not the root cause of the conflict.

“Clearly” to you, but to almost no other readers of this blog or any other reasonable observer of the conflict.

the Oslo agreement, the withdrawal from Lebanon, the withdrawal from the Gaza strip all would have brought us closer to peace.

I’ve addressed these issues seemingly 100 times before & doing so again is beyond tiresome. Oslo was a good beginning but it never proceeded beyond where it stopped and never led to final status negotiations. Lebanon has not been resolved because Israel has refused to return Shebaa Farms to either Lebanon or Syria. The Gaza withdrawal was a sham peace ploy because it was negotiated with no one other than Sharon himself & resolved none of the underlying issues separating Israel from the Palestinians.

The root of the conflict is the refusal of the Arabs and Islamists to accept Jewish sovereignty.

That’s dumber than dumb. Fatah does accept Israeli sovereignty. But sovereignty over what? Over Israel within the Green Line? Or Israel with the Separation Wall border? Or Israel including the Occupied Territories.

They are driven by an ideology emanating from Iran and Saudi Arabia

God, you belong at Little Green Footballs. Why do you waste yr time here? Their ideology is based on Palestinian nationalism pure & simple. You sound like a sock puppet for Dore Gold, Neyanyahu & the anti-Islamofascist crowd. Wouldn’t you feel more at home reading Frontpagemagazine’s and Campus Watch’s sites?