If they are over 15 years old they will say Hebron, as long as the word historic is included.

Hebron is as important a part of historic Israel as Tel Aviv?? You’re simply daft & this answer reveals how little you know what an average non-ideological Israeli thinks.

So Israel bashing is that important to you.

This is prob. the 3rd or 4th time I’ve told you not to engage in such calumny. I deeply resent anyone saying I “bash Israel.” You’re banned until you e mail me saying you think you can refrain from such snark in future.

I don’t bash Israel. I bash Israeli generals and politicians who waste the lives of their young people in hopeless adventures that have no hope of creating a peaceful environment for Israel.

I have a right to decide what I am willing to give.

It is not YOU that is giving anything. It is your nation, Israel, that is giving it. And you will be forced to accept what your political leaders agree to when they reluctantly accept a partial right of return for refugees. I hope to see you out there with the extremist settlers blocking traffic & wearing yellow stars to protest a peace agreement that will guarantee safety & security for you & your descendants. That would be fitting.

Irwin Cotler

I said a CREDIBLE source. Not a propagandist like you. Sorry, but not persuasive in the least.

Regarding Moroccan Jewry, again you have provided no proof or evidence to support yr claims. They may have some validity, but I’m simply unwilling to accept them till you can present credible historical authentification.

Regarding your comment about the Geneva Initiative presenting “a trap for Israel.” Anyone who says that a peace proposal presents a trap for Israel either believes the Israelis behind the Initiative created this trap intentionally or unintentionally. If intentionally, then they would be inimical to Israel’s interests. If unintentionally, then they would be dupes. Either way, yr analysis is unflattering & bogus.

an Israeli/Hebrew news page on the internet covered the story of the law suit between you and Rachel Neuwirth?

That’s an awfullly vague reference. Can you be more specific? I’m assuming you’re talking about Arutz Sheva or one of the other right-wing news sites. At any rate, I’d like to know more about where this appears.

if you asked the vast majority of Israelis whether they see Hebron as an equally significant part of their historic homeland as Tel Aviv, you & I both know what the answer would be.

That’s a no brainer. If they are over 15 years old they will say Hebron, as long as the word historic is included.

What a pity you aren’t Israel’s chief negotiator.

I know, I think so too.

What a pity you aren’t Israel’s chief negotiator. Then we could blame you for the failure of neogitiations & the ensuing bloodshed.

I see. So Israel bashing is that important to you.

You are the ultimate chutzpan. You think you have the right to tell Palestinians what they will get??

No. But I have a right to decide what I am willing to give.

Prove it. But not with propaganda. But rather with reliable sources. Yr claim is entirely specious till I see otherwise. I want to see the 800K number verified. And I want to see the motivation for the emigration verified. I want to see the alleged massacres verified. I want to see the claims of confiscation verified along with numbers of how many people were affected.

I’m glad to see you have such an interest in Jews from Arab countries. I’m not going to “prove it” because I am not an academic scholar but i will point you in the right direction. Fot easy reading you can start with this editorial by Irwin Cotler: (link can be found in RS spam filter). You may want to read the book “Locked Doors: The Seizure of Jewish Property in Arab Countries ” (link can be found in RS spam filter) or settle for the reviews supplied with Amazon. Or if you want an entire reading list you can checkout BIBLIOGRAPHY OF JEWS FROM ARAB COUNTRIES at (link can be found in RS spam filter)

You’re implying that all Moroccan Jews emigrated to Israel and you know this is flat out false as many emigrated to France & other countries.

Most Moroccon Jews left to Israel, though from 1956 to 1963 immigration to Israel was PROHIBITED by Morocco so during this time period most Jews emigrated to France. Between 1963 and 1967 immigration to Israel resumed and once again most Jews immigrated to Israel. After 1967 most Jews leaving Morocco emigrated to the united States (by this time most Jews who wanted to get to Israel had already left and few jews were remaining in Morocco). The fact is that most Jews wanted to leave Morocco because in a Moslem nation they will always have an inferior status.

You cleary see the Israeli architects of the Geneva Initiative as enemies of Israel

I never said this and I would never say this. This is the kind of thing that if I were to say about you, you would be demanding an apology. I know you find this hard to believe, but I am capable of disagreeing with someone and still respect them and not doubt their motives. I do believe that the Geneva Initiative is not in Israel’s best interest and that the poll that was linked to is purposely deceitful for propaganda purposes (like many polls are on both sides of the political map). I do not see the GI people as “enemies of Israel.”

And If such Arabs never saw these soldiers then is Benny Morris’ account of the Nakhba wrong?

I think if you read Morris’ book “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem” you would find that of the villages Morris documents about one/fifth were expelled. One/fifth he doesn’t know and for the remaining three/fifths the inhabitants fled out of fear or because they were ordered to do so by the Arab leadership. Clearly the majority of Arab refugees did not see Jewish fighters when they fled their villages. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be compensated for land they left behind if they can prove ownership. Morris’ book was criticized by people both to the right of him and to the left of him. I certainly am not a judge of his work, but since you brought it up …

BTW, did you know that an Israeli/Hebrew news page on the internet covered the story of the law suit between you and Rachel Neuwirth?

Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria etc. wishing to return to their homeland will be able to do so to Palestine. Not Israel. Period. If they want peace they should get used to the idea.

What a pity you aren’t Israel’s chief negotiator. Then we could blame you for the failure of neogitiations & the ensuing bloodshed. Actually, thankfully someone more flexible & responsible than you will be Israel’s negotiator when a real deal is struck. You are the ultimate chutzpan. You think you have the right to tell Palestinians what they will get?? Puh-leeze.

They left because of centuries of on and off persecution and the consistent relegation to second class status.

Prove it. But not with propaganda. But rather with reliable sources. Yr claim is entirely specious till I see otherwise. I want to see the 800K number verified. And I want to see the motivation for the emigration verified. I want to see the alleged massacres verified. I want to see the claims of confiscation verified along with numbers of how many people were affected.

Moroccan Jews thought it was preferrable to live in the Jewish homeland than as an inferior in a Muslim land.

You’re implying that all Moroccan Jews emigrated to Israel and you know this is flat out false as many emigrated to France & other countries. That makes yr Zionist argument a wash.

a trap to be used against Israel.

You’re propaganda skills are flagging. You cleary see the Israeli architects of the Geneva Initiative as enemies of Israel if you say that they created a mechanism meant to be “a trap used against Israel.” The very notion is preposterous & shows how completely biased you are & how lacking in credibility yr arguments are.

the majority of Arabs fleeing never saw a Haganah Irgurn or Lehi fighter

Talk about revisionist history. Yr spurious recounting of the Nakhba omits the massacres, rapes & destruction of Arab villages by those same Israeli soldiers who you claim most Arab refugees never saw. It omits the fact that Ben Gurion approved of ridding Israel of as many Arabs as it could get away with. And If such Arabs never saw these soldiers then is Benny Morris’ account of the Nakhba wrong? And if you disagree w. Morris, keep in mind you’re disagreeing with a recent convert to yr brand of Israeli nationalist politics who defends the 1948 ethnic cleansing & says there should’ve been more of it.

And yes, Israel along with outside nations will pay these refugees for Israel’s crimes against the Arab refugees. You can’t exile 750,000 people and expect that you will never have a debt to pay for it.

Yes, I favor limiting (but not ending) the Jewish Right of Return as well as the Israeli Arab Right of Return. I don’t believe aliyah should be automatic. I don’t believe it should be draconianly restrictive either. But if you’re going to limit an Arab right to return you must reciprocate in some way on the Jewish side as well.

I think we’ve exhausted this topic & I don’t want to continue this debate beyond your next reply to this. So your next comment will be yr final word in this thread.

The Jews historic homeland is Israel within the Green Line.

(emphasis added)This is news to me. You couldn’t find a single map or document before 1949 with any reference to the green line. This is historical revisionism at its worst.

The State of Israel is the immediate governing authority that took over from the Ottomans & British.

As well as Jordan, Egypt (in Gaza) and if Palestine should come to be, Palestine as well with the exception of it not being immediate but with a delay. Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria etc. wishing to return to their homeland will be able to do so to Palestine. Not Israel. Period. If they want peace they should get used to the idea.

Countries like Morocco implored their Jews not to leave. But Israeli emissaries encouraged them to leave & created horrific images of the violence that would occur to them if they didn’t. These Jews deserve no compensation.

More revisionism. Approximately 800,000 Jews from Arab countries left their home of several centuries. Virtually all of them. They did not leave because of a few Israeli emissaries. They left because of centuries of on and off persecution and the consistent relegation to second class status. Several massacres in Arab lands also preceded their emigration (including Morocco). Their land and property were confiscated. It’s true that the late King Mohammed V of Morocco did not encourage the Jewish emigration and even tried to prevent it and is regarded highly by Moroccan Jews, but apparently Moroccan Jews thought it was preferrable to live in the Jewish homeland than as an inferior in a Muslim land. So why should their land be confiscated? If you decided to leave Seatle wouldn’t you expect to be allowed to sell your home and take your savings with you? And the situation was worse in Iraq, Yemen, Syria and Egypt.

The return of refugees to the Palestinian state and the limited admission of refugees into Israel based on Israel’s exclusive judgment

Note that this survey was comissioned by a group promoting the Geneva Initiative and the wording is biased and misleading to make it more acceptable to Israeis. The phrase “based on Israel’s judgment” implies that Israel can also decide that according to its judgment zero, 100 or 1,000,000 Palestinians are allowed to “return”. But that’s not what the GI says. It says that Israel will accept a number of refugees based on the average number the third party countries are willing to accept. Purposely vague, in my opinion and a trap to be used against Israel. Also the GI that Israel needs to pay compensation to refugees and to countries such as Syria and Lebanon for housing the refugees until now. That’s rich. The Arabs attack Israel with the purpose of destroying it, urge the Arab civilians to make way for their victorious armies, the majority of Arabs fleeing never saw a Haganah Irgurn or Lehi fighter, Jewish agencies call on the Arabs to stay put, and now Israel has to pay those same Arab nations compensation. Not only does the GI call on Israel to pay refugees for land lost (something I favor in a final settlement) but also compensation for “refugeehood” whatever that means and for whoever that refers to. I don’t see that in the aforementioned poll.
I see that you favor Israel cancelling a full right of return for Jews as well.

Jews would be giving up a good part of their historic homeland in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

“Historic homeland?” Under whose terms? Meir Kahane? The only people who feel any real affinity for retaining the Territories are extremist settlers & other nationalist right wingers. The vast majority of Israelis, if there was a prospect for a real & guaranteed peace would give up any such claim in a heartbeat. Giving up the Territories is not a concession except to you. The Jews historic homeland is Israel within the Green Line. That’s what the world recognizes.

They never lived in Israel.

If your father bequeaths you a family home in Italy, where you never lived, are you not entitled to own it? Refugees possessed their homes until 1948. They did not give up a claim to those homes by dispossession. They are entitled to pass their claim on to immediate family as long as they can claim direct kinship to the original owner just as you or I are entitled to pass claim on to our own descendants of our own property.

It doesn’t require that their be Ottoman or British authorities around to recognize the Arab claim. The State of Israel is the immediate governing authority that took over from the Ottomans & British. The claim doesn’t die merely because the government changed hands. Besides, they were expelled by the Israeli government, not the Ottomans or British.

There are hundreds of thousands of immediate refugees who were expelled from Israel AND THEIR IMMEDIATE DESCENDANTS. All of them have legitimate claims as long as the descendants can prove that they inherited the claims from an original inhabitant.

I also think that Jews who left Arab and Muslim countries should be compensated for land and property they left behind.

Not the same in most cases. Jews who chose to leave by their own volition should not be compensated. If there is historic proof of violence or other forms of compulsion forced them to leave they should be compensated. Countries like Morocco implored their Jews not to leave. But Israeli emissaries encouraged them to leave & created horrific images of the violence that would occur to them if they didn’t. These Jews deserve no compensation.

How is allowing for some refugees to return doing justice to those who are not allowed to return?

It is a general principle that affects not just individuals, but an entire group. There is a collective claim by the entire group that was expelled against the entire State of Israel. Recognizing the claim of a representative group respects the general principle even though it does not fulfill the claim in full physical & absolute fashion for every injured party. That is why financial compensation would become a replacement for physical resettlement within Israel for the rest.

“”"October 2007: Poll by MarketWatch Research Institute finds great majority of Israelis support conducting permanent status negotiations with the Palestinians.
Date: 30.10.07
Source:

The poll, commissioned by GI, also finds majority of Israelis support package deal along the lines of the Geneva Accord and favor arriving at a detailed document of understandings at the Annapolis summit.
Poll conducted by MarketWatch Research Institute
Commissioned by Geneva Initiative - October 2007

The survey was conducted on a representative sample of 600 Israelis (including the Russian-speaking and Arab Israeli communities)
Maximum margin of error is ±4.0%

…The return of refugees to the Palestinian state and the limited admission of refugees into Israel based on Israel’s exclusive judgment:
Object 54%
Support 38%
Undecided 9%

http://www.geneva-accord.org/General.aspx?docID=2414&FolderID=45&lang=en “”"

In that case, why wouldn’t Jews have agreed to create a Jewish state somewhere other than their historic ancestral homeland?

Excuse me, under the two state solutions Jews would be giving up a good part of their historic homeland in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. You’re the one being disingenuous.

The refugees themselves will not accept repatriation to a state they & their families never lived in.

They never lived in Israel. And I’m afraid neither the Ottomans nor the British are planning a comeback.

So you believe the hundreds of thousands of Nakhba refugees who still live in camps in Lebanon or wherever are not “real” refugees?

I didn’t say that. What I said is that most people classified as refugees today are not what you call “nakhba” refugees but their decendants. Since the “nakhba” was about 60 years ago, and the life expectancy in Lebanon is 70 years, it is likely that most fleeing Arabs from the “nakba” are no longer alive, at least those that were over 10 years old. Regarding persons with deeds to property in Israel, I think they should be compensated according to the value of their property in 1948 adjusted for inflation. I also think that Jews who left Arab and Muslim countries should be compensated for land and property they left behind.

I don’t believe that ALL refugees must return in this fashion. But some must in order for justice to be done.

How is allowing for some refugees to return doing justice to those who are not allowed to return?

So if they are not returning to their homes why immigrate to Israel and not to their brand new Palestinian state just a few kilometers away?

In that case, why wouldn’t Jews have agreed to create a Jewish state somewhere other than their historic ancestral homeland? Why was it so important to them that the homeland be on the site of ancient Israel & not say 5 or 50 or 5,000 Km away in Lebanon or Uganda or wherever? Of course, territory matters. It matters just as much if not more to Israeli Arabs than to Jews since most of them have an even more unbroken link to this specific land than we Jews do since almost all of our families did not live for unbroken generations in Israel.

It is totally disiingenuous to say that if refugees are not returning to their specific physical home in Jaffo or Ramleh or Lod they might as well settle in Ramallah. Israel is quite good at building settlements, it could be equally good at creating new communities for any refugees who return. Not to mention the investment & economic activity that such building would generate to benefit the refugees & Israeli businesses that would profit.

the returning refugees, most of whom are not real refugees but decendants of refugees

So you believe the hundreds of thousands of Nakhba refugees who still live in camps in Lebanon or wherever are not “real” refugees? What utter narischkeit! Besides, if your father or mine bequeaths the deed to the family home to you or me we possess it in the same way that a refugee bequeaths a claim to a home he was expelled from in 1948. The claim doesn’t end merely because the Haganah or whoever succeeded in expelling them illegally from that home. That is why a just solution to the refugee issue is so critical to ending the conflict.

Each state should absorb its own immigrants.

Again, that’s mighty white of you. The refugees themselves will not accept repatriation to a state they & their families never lived in. They want repatriation to the actual physical place they once lived in even if not necessarily to that particular home they lost. That place is now Israel.

I don’t believe that ALL refugees must return in this fashion. But some must in order for justice to be done.

All of Amir’s bloviating above only shows the continual bad faith he shows to understanding the legitimate demands of both Israeli Arabs and Palestinians in seeking justice. I might add that there are Palestinian militants who show equally bad faith in understanding legitimate Israeli demands for peace & security.