Children of 5767 « Tikun Olam-תיקון עולם: Make the World a Better Place

Children of 5767

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Tags: children, civilian deaths, gideon-levy

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16 Responses to “Children of 5767”

Andy says:

September 30, 2007 at 9:35 AM

“Operation Locked Kindergarten”?? Is this really the term that the IDF used?

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John Yorke says:

September 30, 2007 at 3:41 PM

457/10.
Statistically, the mathematics here would indicate a good result from an Israeli point of view. But each tragic death will have left its mark upon both communities and who is to say what might register in the next such tally. As this small planet resumes yet another of its lonely journeys around our single sun, will that same cycle produce only more of the same? Tomorrow still remains the great unknown for all of us but year 5767 will have done much to shape the days ahead; for many, in year 5768, it may mean the end of days.

For too many, and too soon.

Those 467 dead have one consolation. They no longer have to figure a way out of all this. That task must remain with the rest of us – until fate decides to remove us from the equation also.

But what if we never find an answer? Then that burden transfers onward to our progeny; yet another unwelcome legacy from this generation to the next.

Unless we all stop trying to micro-manage the situation and start throwing into it some really kick ass solutions, then I’m afraid the figures for year 5768 may rival those of 5767. Indeed, they may well present us with an even worse return.

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Richard Silverstein says:

September 30, 2007 at 7:14 PM

Is this really the term that the IDF used?

I never heard the term myself but I’m sure Levy is right. How ’bout ‘Operation Summer Rain’ too? Have you ever heard of a more ludicrous phrase in the middle of a desert climate? I think the names are the product of someone with a highly ironic (& cruel) sense of humor to say the least.

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amir says:

September 30, 2007 at 10:22 PM

“Operation Locked Kindergarten”?? Is this really the term that the IDF used?

No. The operation was called “locked garden”. Adding the “kinder” was Gideon Levy or his translators idea, no doubt for the added propaganda effect, which is what Gideon levy is, a propagandist. With all the sorrow for those innocently killed. The operation was called “gan na-ul” in Hebrew. Gan means garden. Kindergarten is “gan yeladim” though most people say “gan” for short when they mean “gan yeladim” but this is obviously incorrect to do when translating names. And you have issues wth memri’s translations.

For a list of the names of the operations in Hebrew see: http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A6%D7%A2_%D7%92%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%99_%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A5

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Richard Silverstein says:

September 30, 2007 at 11:00 PM

what Gideon levy is, a propagandist.

No, he’s a journalist & a damn good one. If he’s a propagandist then the most distinguished award winning journalists here in this country like Maureen Dowd, Anthony Lewis, David Halberstam, are also propagandists. They have a pt of view. That is what you object to–that Levy’s pt of view is contrary to yr own. No doubt if a journalist represented yr political pt of view they would not be a ‘propagandist,’ but of course a “journalist.”

It should tell you something about yr political views that you agree with the notorious Kahanist psycho-hater, Steven Plaut, who calls Levy an “anti-Israel leftist fanatic.”

The term “locked kindergarten” clearly made reference to the subject of the column, which was the death of children. Even if you look at the actual title of the operation “locked garden,” it is a cruel & feebly ironic joke to label Gaza a “garden.”

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amir says:

October 1, 2007 at 4:54 AM

The names of the IDF military operations have been the subject of many discussions on IsraeliTV and radio. Briefly, the majority of the names are generated by a computer algorithm.

Gideon Levy is one of the only journalists covering Arab affairs who does not speek Arabic. by his own admision he brings their side of the story without verification (source in Hebrew: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/1,7340,L-1709008,00.html) relying on local translators (perhaps provided by fatah.) His columns, including the above column, lacks context. Do I consider him a journalist? Yes, he is a journalist. I wouldn’t consider him an investigative journalist, though, and I certainly consider him a propagandist for the above reason.

As a whole, I am not interested in what Steven Plaut thinks. I am not going to change my opinion in order to disagree with him. Your comment about him is an attempt to smear me.

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 1, 2007 at 12:17 PM

He provides the Palestinian side without verification by his own admission

Another unsubstantiated claim. If you have the substantiation then present it. I have no idea what you’re saying about my spam filter.

He is one of the only Arab affairs correspondents that does not speak Arabic, and I believe relies on local or Fatah tranlators. Quoting “witnesses” as I have said before is risky. Just this week the Fatah pulled one over on the Jerusalem Post with a false story with false witnesses.

All of which is irrelevant to Levy since you provide no example of him ever printing a false story. And he runs rings around most other Arab affairs reporters who do speak Arabic. And I wasn’t aware that coverage of Arab affairs was so good anyway among the Israeli media. So a lot of good knowing Arabic has done for their coverage.

I have no sympathy for JPost & if someone manipulated them they deserved it. They are, except for a few of the columnists, a bunch of sloppy, ideologically slanted journalists.

Since Gideon Levy does not speak Arabic and by his own admission does even try to verify the truthfulness of the version of events presented to him, his writing is particularly suspect.

No, you get no traction here with crap like that. If his work is suspect then you prove it. If you can’t prove it then you’re talkin’ trash & we’ll see that for what it is.

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amir says:

October 1, 2007 at 1:31 PM

I often back my claims with links and the comment gets blocked by your spam filter – such as in this case. Here is the link again: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/1,7340,L-1709008,00.html.
Briefly he is asked why he always presents the Palestinian side as “truth” when from experience we know that they often lie. He doesn’t deny the accusation but says the Israeli side often lies to (which of course is irrelevant) and that when he sees a girl shot by an Israeli soldier, a woman whose newborn died at a checkpoint or the way soldiers treat the old then there is no question who is telling the truth and who’s lying. Well, actually there is. The Palestinians have faked funerals, presented kids who died in car accidents as having been killed by the IDF, the al-Dura incident is probably a hoax, at least the version presented to the media, recently the Fatah tried to pass a video of a stoning in Iraq as one perpertrated by Hamas. Levy uncritically accepts the probable lie that the Palestinian girl you wrote of lately was killed by a rubber bullet when the forensics does not support such a claim. I don’t have the tools to check every story the Fatah feeds him, maybe others have done so, but his attitude as presented in the discussion i linked to is enough to disqualify him as a serious reporter.

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David says:

October 1, 2007 at 3:03 PM

So on one side of the Jewish community we have Amir, who when reading of 457 Palestinian deaths is primarily concerned about the amount of sympathy which the account may generate. And then on the other side we have M.J. Rosenberg–

“This article illustrates one reason I love Israel.
“No, I obviously do not love Israel because of the murders of children the article describes. I love Israel because an article like this can appear in a newspaper that is the New York Times of Israel — when it could not appear in the real New York Times or any major media outlet here. … Read this article and see what it is like in a place where the far right does not intimidate the press into silence.”
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2007/sep/28/the_dead_children_of_palestine

Now I fully understand what Rosenberg means, and that he’s not defending the killing of Palestinians. But it is still very discouraging to see the nominally Left so desperate to support Zionism that it can present this story as having something to do with free-speech.

It reminds me of Golda Meir’s quote about not being able to forgive the Palestinians for “making us kill their children.” Something is grotesquely out of proportion here.

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 1, 2007 at 7:50 PM

I agree with you & I speak as someone with an enormous respect for M.J. But I write a blog & am responsible to no one but myself & my readers. He speaks on behalf of an organization AND himself. Not everyone in IPF feels as we do about these matters & so people in his position have to consider what they say & how they say it.

I do think a valid part of what M.J. is saying is that no one on Capitol Hill or the corridors of power wants to know how many Palestinian children were killed this past year or how they died. And that only adds to the tragedy.

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John Yorke says:

October 1, 2007 at 7:55 PM

Hello Richard, Amir, David,

Free speech, journalistic bias, left-leaning liberalism, right-wing pragmatism, religious certainty and manifold destiny; the list of motivations is certainly a long one – and growing longer all the time.

It all resembles a classic logjam, one in which new logs are constantly being added to those already in place and where each new crisis and each new death only serves to reinforce the structure, maintaining it in being, increasing it in permanence.

It’s of no use trying to remove these logs one by one. More will simply keep coming. This logjam needs to be blown out of the water but carefully, of course, and in a more or less controlled manner. The alternative is to let it build to such an extent that its eventual dissolution must carry all before it.

The tricky bit here is knowing what explosives to use and where to place them for maximum effect.

As you know, I’ve always had a preference for this particular brand: http://yorketowers.blogspot.com.

Others may favour milder forms of intervention but that risks leaving the logjam still firmly in place. Best to get the whole thing over and done with once and for all. Otherwise what’s left is mere micro-management of the situation – never much of an option when tackling a logjam as big as this one.

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 1, 2007 at 8:25 PM

I often back my claims with links and the comment gets blocked by your spam filter – such as in this case

Yes, my spam filter is pretty tough on URLs. But when you get that msg. pls. just send me a quick e mail & I’ll find the comment & rescue it.
It should be easy enough if you remember any unique words fr. the interview to find it on the web. I’d feel a whole lot more comfortable commenting on what Levy actually said rather than yr interpretation of what he said.

from experience we know that they often lie

You can be damn sure that if Gideon Levy ever got a story wrong the Shin Bet & IDF intelligence would be all over it. If other right wing journalists don’t trust or like his reporting they can dig into his stories & prove the weakness of them. That’s what’s done here in the States all the time. How do you think we discovered the lies Judy Miller was peddling?

I’m still waiting for you to present a Palestinian lie that Levy reported as truth. That’s the crux of this entire stupid argument we’re having. Until you can, you don’t have a leg to stand on.

the al-Dura incident is probably a hoax

This is laughable. First, it has nothing to do with Levy whose reporting you’ve accused of being propaganda because it supposedly isn’t reliable. Levy didn’t create the Dura story. Second, you haven’t even proven the Dura story is a hoax. C’mon.

Levy uncritically accepts the probable lie that the Palestinian girl you wrote of lately was killed by a rubber bullet

The Palestinian girl has a name & I wish you’d take a few seconds to Google it here & use it. If God forbid you died I assure you I’d use yr name & not call you an ‘Israeli-American male.’ The dead deserve their names.

It is not a probable lie. If it is you prove it is. I’ve presented evidence from the commander admitting that his soldiers fired that day on those children. He even tacitly admits that she died from the firing. Why haven’t the actual police testified about what happened? Why has the investigation ended w. no serious inquiry?

every story the Fatah feeds him

I REALLY resent the insulting, mistrustful tone of yr commentary on everything that Palestinians do or say. The Aramin story was not “fed” to him by anyone. It’s no wonder that the average Israeli may never be able to make peace with Palestinians. With crude, racist attitudes like yours as the norm peace is a hopeless pipedream.

And you should talk about “feeding” stories to the media. The IDF have never been known to do that now have they? How ’bout every day of the wk & twice on Sunday?

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amir says:

October 2, 2007 at 2:35 PM

You can be damn sure that if Gideon Levy ever got a story wrong the Shin Bet & IDF intelligence would be all over it.

I think they have better things to do than to fact check for Gideon Levy. Gideon Levy’s column’s appear in the op-ed page which is how they should be regarded; as opinion, not fact.

The IDF have never been known to do that now have they?

If any journalists present the IDF version of disputable events as facts without independant corraboration or without attributing the details to the IDF spokesperson, then he is not a worthy journalist but a mouthpiece for the IDF.

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 3, 2007 at 12:29 AM

I think they have better things to do than to fact check for Gideon Levy.

I am virtually certain that Levy is detested by the Shin Bet & IDF. You can be damn sure if they had a chance to embarrass him by pointing out he’d been duped or gotten a story wrong they’d relish the opportunity. I only wish the IDF spent its time as wisely as you seem to think it does.

If any journalists present the IDF version of disputable events as facts without independant corraboration or without attributing the details to the IDF spokesperson, then he is not a worthy journalist but a mouthpiece for the IDF.

Surely you must know that most Israeli journalists esp. security correspondents do precisely that. The overwhelming benefit of the doubt is almost always given to the IDF. Wild speculative theories passed off by Shin Bet spooks & IDF intelligence analysts are reported as fact w/o substantiation, clarification or explanation. There are some exceptions to the rule of course. While there is some investigative journalism within Israeli media the tradition is nothing like what it is here. Part of the reason is military censorship which stops such probing cold.

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amir says:

October 3, 2007 at 4:33 AM

Here is Gideon Levy in his own words:

What can you say about the army’s relationship with journalists?

I can tell you mainly about the army’s relationship toward Israeli journalists. All the military correspondents, they all go with the army, they quote the army, they are so uncritical about the army in the last two years. If you try to criticize, they tell you, “Look at the United States. Look at the press there. Look at the media there. They are much worse than us. Nobody (there) asks any (critical) questions about Afghanistan.”

So most of the media is very faithful, patriotic. But I must tell you that even toward someone like me, on the official level they are very fair with me. They give me the full freedom to really operate. They know what I’m writing and still they let me in on a regular basis. I can meet anyone. I must tell you that from this point of view Israel is a real democracy. They always say Israel is a real democracy toward Israeli Jews. I’m Israeli, I am Jewish and I really enjoy full democracy

Notice the first paragraph of the qoute in his opinion which I’ve heard many times from him, but have never heard him, or you, back up. In the second paragraph (the one I emphasized) he is speaking from his personal experience so it has much more legitimacy.

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 3, 2007 at 6:48 PM

Notice the first paragraph of the qoute in his opinion which I’ve heard many times from him, but have never heard him, or you, back up

You feel that the fact that Israeli journalists uncritically quote IDF spokespeople needs to be proven? I see it virtually every day I read the Israeli press but especially when the IDF kills Palestinian civilians or engages in an offensive operation. This charge is patently self-evident & if you doubt it then you too are reading yr own media uncritically.

Levy’s views toward the IDF & Israeli democracy fluctuate depending on the day & the subject. I’ve also read him recently tell a French TV correspondent that a particular IDF killing made him ashamed to be an Israeli. But I do take yr pt. that Levy feels the IDF treats him decently which is important.

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