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9th Circuit Hears Arguments on Corrie Family Suit Against Caterpillar

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61 Responses to “9th Circuit Hears Arguments on Corrie Family Suit Against Caterpillar”

amir says:

July 20, 2007 at 7:09 AM

Another major error of yours is that the officer who shot Hurndall was NOT an Israeli Arab. Arabs do not serve in the IDF both because they choose not to and because the army views them as a security risk & would refuse to allow them if they did attempt to join.

No, Richard. You are the one with major errors. The man who killed Hurndall was Taysir Hayb. He wasn’t an officer as you claim but a sargeant. He isn’t Druze, he is Bedouin/Muslim. I’m sure he will be glad to hear he has been exonerated. This is probably news to him. His sister Amira al Hayb was the first Bedouin woman to serve in the IDF. Since then, many other Bedouin women have joined the IDF. Many Bedouins serve in the army, and are in fact given incentives to do so. The most famous was Abd el-Majid Hidr otherwise known as Lieutenant Colonel Amos Yarkoni, a highly decorated officer who is a legend in the IDF. Non-bedouins are also allowed to serve if they want to. Most don’t want to, but recently the IDF has been checking the willingness of Arabs to serve.

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amir says:

July 20, 2007 at 7:35 AM

BTW all the names mentioned in the last post have listings at wikipedia. But just to press thepoint, Ismail Haniyeh himself has sisters married to Israeli Arabs whose kids served in the IDF. http://www.google.co.il/search?hl=iw&q=haniyeh+sisters+israeli+army+bedouin&btnG=%D7%97%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%A9&meta=

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 20, 2007 at 10:25 AM

He wasn’t an officer as you claim but a sargeant.

A sergeant IS an officer. At least in the U.S. army. Is the IDF different than the rest of the world’s armies??

This is probably news to him.

Are you claiming he was punished? If so, you don’t say so. I read he was not punished or convicted of any charge. If you know otherwise you should say so & verify yr claim.

The fact that you are pleased to hear that Tom Hurndall’s murderer got off scot free says a lot about your selective morallity when it comes to the actions of the IDF. The ISM are immoral liars, while those who kill unarmed filmmakers merely because they are shooting footage of Occupation activities are upstanding upholders of Israeli democratic values.

As you know, Bedouins have quite a different ethnic identity than Israeli Arabs which is the group I was discussing. And you conveniently ignore that while many Israeli Arabs would justifiably refuse to serve in the IDF, it is mainly the IDF that refuses to have them. You say vaguely the “IDF has been checking the willingness of Arabs to serve.” I have no idea what that means & you really should clarify such statements for them to have any meaning. And when the IDF actually allows Israeli Arabs to serve pls. let us know.

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amir says:

July 20, 2007 at 11:38 AM

In the Israeli army a sergeant is not an officer. I haven’t served in any other army so I can’t say. Taysir Hayb served in the Israeli army and therefore he is not an officer. Taysr Hayb was sentenced to eight years for manslaughter and obstruction of justice. A google search on his name or Tom hurndall’s name will show you that I am correct.
I did not express any pleasure about anyone getting off scot free. Read my comment again. I cynically said that Hayb would be glad to hear he was exonerated.
The IDF does not actively draft Israeli Arabs, but I have never heard of an Israeli Arab that wanted to serve in the Army but was denied. If you have heard of such a case, I would be glad to hear about. A couple of years ago an Israeli muslim asked to be accepted to a Pilots training course, but was rejected. It’s hard to say he was rejected because he was a Muslim since it was a single case, and most applicants for pilot’s training are rejected. He was invited to join the paratroopers though. According to Haaretz about 150 Israeli Arabs Muslims (not including bedouins) and Christains volunteer each year. The Haaretz article is no longer available online but if you google “Arabs in the IDF” the article is extensivelly quoted in the first link. Even if you don’t like the blogger making the quotation, he is quoting Ha’aretz.
Israeli Bedouins ARE Israeli Arabs. Excluding them from the category of Israeli Arabs is extremely racist, as though I were to say Jews but mean only Ashkenazis, or Americans and not include certain groups of Americans. I
Lastly, I read somewhere, and I don’t remember where, that the army was taking telephone surveys among Israeli Arabs to test their attitudes about military service and instituting a gradual draft among them.

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tangentlama says:

July 20, 2007 at 12:24 PM

Not all Badawa are Arab, and not all Badawit an Naqab are Arab – some are descended from Bosnian or Wallachian slaves brought in by Justinian, so is best not to make assumptions.

Bedouin, who lived in Naqab for 7,000 years and counting, are also not able to build, even with the purchase of their land. 25 years have one family been waiting and still their house is demolished on their own land – the reasons are more to do with the ILA wanting to herd Badawa into certain enclave and eradicate Arabic names of their former villages/regions.

It pains me to think of what is being done to the indiginous peoples who lived there for thousands and thousands of years, well before Abraham Avinu ever set foot in the region – they are not treated with respect by Israel – the Govt. treats them with disdain, although they lived lightly in the region.

Now they must live with lakes of lung-searing pollutants forced to live near the industrial region – and these a semi-nomadic people. The Badawa deserve recognition for their ancient way of life much the same as the Sapmi whose ancient territory stretches across 4 nation states – Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia – their rights as nomadic herdsmen and farmers ought to be honoured. All Israel sees is real estate, industrial estates, illegal villages, and labour force.

Forcing Badawa to live near Ramat Horav, demolishing their homes, spraying their crops with Monsanto roundup, denying them freedom of ancient way of life – it’s a disgrace, a shameful disgrace.
ILA destroys Bedouin homes to make way for Jewish town

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 20, 2007 at 4:39 PM

Yes, you are right about the sentence against him though he is one of the few Israeli soldiers who HAS been prosecuted & the only reason he was was because he murdered a foreigner & the British Foreign Office was breathing down Israel’s neck to do something. Israelis who kill Palestinian civilians in similar circumstances are uniformly never prosecuted.

And you are also right in that I misread yr comment carelessly to mean that you were pleased he was exonerated.

Saying that 150 Israeli Arabs and Christians enlist in the IDF every year isn’t saying much. For all intents & purposes the army doesn’t want them & they don’t want the army. I would like to see that change, but it isn’t going to until the state and its military apparatus change in their attitude toward the Arab minority.

Israeli Bedouins ARE Israeli Arabs. Excluding them from the category of Israeli Arabs is extremely racist,

Oh fiddlesticks. You’re just huffing & puffing. I’m not saying that they aren’t Arabs. But a Bedouin has a ethnic origin & identity that is diff. than an Israeli Arab living in Nazareth. And both their social, political & cultural attitudes are entirely diff. as are their attitudes toward their State. If you don’t acknowledge this then you’re just posing rather than serious.

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Jimmy Collins says:

July 22, 2007 at 8:49 PM

No actually Richard it was you who “huffed and puffed” at myself and then Amir…

You are little more than a propagandist in that you enter into the record only that which supports yr argument but conveniently omit anything that damages yr argument. The one that demolishes yours is that the officer charged with killing Tom Hurndall (who was a FILMMAKER, not a reporter as you inaccurately wrote) was EXONERATED as virtually any IDF soldier is who faces similar charges. So give the IDF one credit for soldiers willing to testify against one of their own and subtract 100 for an inability to hold anyone accountable for a clearly criminal action against an unarmed, defenseless British filmmaker.

Oh, please excuse me for not pointing out he was a flimaker doing a documentary and NOT a Reporter… My apologies for that bit of “propoganda”….

However, Amir seemed to then take apart your attempt to slam me and him
Re: 1) His sentencing 2) ethnic origin 3) officership 4) Amir being “pleased” he got off for murder etc…
as well as Israeli Arabs serving in the military.

Also, how many Palestinians have been prosecuted by the PLO for murdering foreign nationals in terrorism?
How about the Americans recently delivering scholarship money in Gaza?
How about the Turkish peacekeeping forces shot a few years back in clearly marked cars?
One could go on and on?

Actually many of the people who engineered or took part in these attacks roam the halls comingle with many ISM activists….

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 22, 2007 at 11:28 PM

Amir seemed to then take apart your attempt to slam me and him
Re: 1) His sentencing 2) ethnic origin 3) officership…as well as Israeli Arabs serving in the military

To misquote Bob Dylan: “a man reads what he wants to read & disregards the rest.” Hayb was sentenced, but almost no other Israeli Border police or IDF soldiers are similarly prosecuted let alone convicted. Hayb was prosecuted only because a foreign government refused to accept IDF impunity.

Hayb is Bedouin which is not the same as being an Israeli Arab. Bedouin serve in the IDF because they have a different relationship with the State than other Israeli Arabs (though the Israeli state actually treats them just about as badly).

As far as Hayb not being an officer. Many Israeli officers have commited crimes as reprehensible as the one Hayb committed. Some of these cases are discussed here in this blog. Dan Halutz himself is a prime example of someone who has blood on his hands. I don’t deny Israel the right to defend itself against terror. But what Halutz & so many other officers have done during their careers goes far beyond mere defense and crosses the line into state terror & war crimes. And I am by no means excusing the crimes of the other side either.

Amir claims that 150 non-Jews volunteer for the IDF ea. yr. First, we don’t know how many of them are Israeli Arabs. But let’s say there are 100. That’s 100 out of nearly 3 million Israeli Arabs. That is not a record to be proud of. It only proves that the IDF does not flat out reject every Arab who applies. And I would wonder where such Arabs serve? Are they allowed into combat units?

Actually many of the people who engineered or took part in these attacks roam the halls comingle with many ISM activists

This is a stupid scummy statement which really shows yr true colors. Make such unfounded, unsupported accusations again & your privileges to comment here will be reviewed. I have no problem with anyone criticizing the ISM here & a good number have. But to accuse the ISM of making common cause with murderers is beyond the pale. There are many websites that would welcome such garbage. Wouldn’t you be spending yr time more profitably among yr own kind at those sites?

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Jimmy Collins says:

July 23, 2007 at 7:05 PM

So let me get this straight my initial statement was SPOT ON? NO?
He was sentenced, sitting in jail today and based in part on the testimony of other IDF soldiers…..?
And further you erred and insulted me and my integrity? NO?
You didn’t apologize or admit that you simply made a mistake…

You are little more than a propagandist in that you enter into the record only that which supports yr argument but conveniently omit anything that damages yr argument. The one that demolishes yours is that the officer charged with killing Tom Hurndall (who was a FILMMAKER, not a reporter as you inaccurately wrote) was EXONERATED as virtually any IDF soldier is who faces similar charges.

Instead here is your “statement” on it -

To misquote Bob Dylan: “a man reads what he wants to read & disregards the rest.” Hayb was sentenced, but almost no other Israeli Border police or IDF soldiers are similarly prosecuted let alone convicted. Hayb was prosecuted only because a foreign government refused to accept IDF impunity.

So you in fact erred in this case and insulted me on top that but?
“It’s ok bcs many (according to you) other IDF officers have committed war crimes…

Now let me quote my initial statement which you impugned which is actually a very fair not over the top statement -

This you would think would make one more suspicious of the initial accounts pushed out to the media by the PLO than less…. I mean even if you are prone, as some are on this site, to accuse and impugn the IDF, if you use the Cui Bono “theory” often thrown at the Israelis like in the Harriri assassination… you would ask how much this media event benefitted the PLO and hurt the Israelis…. and how the PLO would seem to cynically utilize situations like this for their benefit… Hezbollah’s media manipulation is another example of this and there have been quite a few documented cases of the PLO and the Palestinians doing this as well….

However, this does not mean the IDF does not commit criminal acts (we could debate which are and arent) however, it also indicates that the PLO and Palestinians cynically utilize and have been caught posing for media. And in this case as in the Mohammed Al Durrah case, in my estimation, cynically if not disgustingly manipulate and aggrandize tragic events to score media points.

Incidentally in the case of the British reporter that was shot if I remember correctly that soldier was in fact charged based on testimony of other IDF soldiers… Further, just for the record that soldier was an Israeli Arab serving in the IDF as a good number in fact do, particularly in the most dangerous zones, such as Rafah.

What’s amazing is that a few ISM witnesses apparently gave the first quote. Considering the ISM is likely predisposed to give an “account” that would be harshly critical of the IDF particularly in this case.

Pretty fair accurate statement but instead you further insult and threaten me??
You quote me in my latest post -

Actually many of the people who engineered or took part in these attacks roam the halls comingle with many ISM activists

Then you respond -

This is a stupid scummy statement which really shows yr true colors.

That’s another character assassination assassination right after the 1 above?

Make such unfounded, unsupported accusations again & your privileges to comment here will be reviewed. I have no problem with anyone criticizing the ISM here & a good number have. But to accuse the ISM of making common cause with murderers is beyond the pale. There are many websites that would welcome such garbage. Wouldn’t you be spending yr time more profitably among yr own kind at those sites?

Now a threat? And yes I have read accounts where some ISM activists in the past have shielded wanted men, Islamic Jihad top guys, in buildings… from the IDF… I imagine that means they were likey in the same halls?

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 23, 2007 at 8:26 PM

So let me get this straight my initial statement was SPOT ON? NO?

No, you said he was charged but provided no proof of this. Amir provided proof, you didn’t. As for calling him “an Israeli Arab” he is a Bedouin which is an imprecise ethnic classification on yr part.

you erred and insulted me and my integrity? NO?

Get of yr high horse. I erred and if I insulted you & yr integrity you fully deserved it for other reasons than yr statement that Hayb was “charged” which turned out to be correct (though you didn’t authenticate it). You’ve made so many other errors here which I have verified that I have no compunction attacking yr credibility. As for apologies, you can wait till Hell freezes over for one. People who come here & write in bad faith don’t get velvet glove treatment. People who disagree w. me here but do so in good faith have gotten apologies from me when I’ve been proven wrong. As for you, fughedaboudit!

Here’s something for you to chew on. Why don’t you present some statistics showing us how many IDF soldiers or Border Police officers are ever charged with violations of human rights or crimes against Palestinians. Or tell me why the Border Police who shot 12 Nazareth Arabs dead in cold blood in 2000 were never charged w. any violation.

Then we can determine whether the Hayb prosecution is the exception that proves the rule; or whether it is the norm as it should be if Israel were truly democratic & the IDF was truly accountable. I note that after my repeating this fact twice earlier you’ve refused to address it. Why would that be?

instead you further insult and threaten me

‘Threaten?’ Hardly. Warning you that you violate my comment rules is just that, a warning. And go check out those rules. They say you must support charges w. real evidence. You didn’t do that which I why I warned you. You can choose to adhere to my rules as I explain them to you or not. It’s yr choice. But to call this a threat is ridiculous.

I have read accounts where some ISM activists in the past have shielded wanted men, Islamic Jihad top guys, in buildings… from the IDF

You should know by now that nothing you say here is considered accurate without a source. Yr. claim will be considered unsubstantianted until you do so.

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amir says:

July 24, 2007 at 9:28 AM

I really don’t understand what you are trying to say by distinguishing Bedouins from other Israeli Arabs. They are Israeli and they are Arabs. How is the fact that Israeli Arabs are a heterogenous group relevant?

Or tell me why the Border Police who shot 12 Nazareth Arabs dead in cold blood in 2000 were never charged w. any violation.

You’re a bit sloppy with the facts. 12 Nazareth Arabs were never shot by border police. If you’re talking about the riots of Oct 2000, then we’re talking about riots that spanned several days and dozens od Arab villages over Israel. Three of the killed were from Nazareth, and to the best of my recollection they were for the most part confronted by regular police and not border police. Alek Ron (the commander – today in meretz) and Guy Raif were definitely in the regular police and not the border police. An additional Palestinian was killed and an Israeli was killed by stone throwers. The events were investigated by a committee, I haven’t read the report, but you’ve mentioned this event (inacurrately) so many times, so I suggest you read it. BTW – have any of the police been investigated or tried over the 1992 Los Angeles riots. Eight people were shot by law enforcement agents and 2 by the national guard.

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 24, 2007 at 10:24 AM

I really don’t understand what you are trying to say by distinguishing Bedouins from other Israeli Arabs. They are Israeli and they are Arabs. How is the fact that Israeli Arabs are a heterogenous group relevant?

The attitudes of Bedouin toward the state & serving in the IDF are entirely different from Israeli Arabs. So to claim that Hayb is an example of an Israeli Arab who was willing to serve in the IDF in order to refute the idea that almost all other Israeli Arabs refuse to serve, is bogus. A Bedouin’s attitude toward IDF service is entirely different than an Israeli Arab’s.

Actually, we were both wrong according to Haaretz. I was wrong because actually 13 Israeli Arabs were murdered, not 12 as I originally stated:

Thirteen men were killed in the riots, 12 of them Israeli citizens.

My original understanding was that there was a major altercation in Nazareth proper at which most are killed but it appears others were killed in village/s nearby as well.

As for whether the local police or Border Police killed them, it was my impression it was Border Police. If it wasn’t I stand corrected.

As for the Los Angeles riots, first you’re introducing a red herring. One tactic of Israel apologists I’ve noticed is that when they’re uncomfortable focussing on Israel’s flaws they introduce another supposedly morally ambiguous event to detract fr. Israel’s culpability for their own behavior. Why can’t you stay focussed on the issue instead of introducing new factors that have nothing to do w. the original discussion?

First, the Israeli police were confronted with unarmed protestors who posed no threat into whom they fired many rounds of live ammunition. Second, there was an investigation which exonerated everyone involved. This fact was a scandal within Israel which embarrassed both Jews and Arabs, as reported by Haaretz. Third, the state has done nothing to rectify the suffering or damage its agents caused.

In the LA riots which I lived through, there was utter chaos in the streets. Entire portions of the city went up in flames (I know because I watched it with terror every night). Police and firemen were pelted with stones and bottles. Stores were looted and burned in many neighborhoods. Residential complexes were torched. It was a war zone. Police and average citizens were in fear for their lives. Some people were killed, yes. I don’t know if there WAS an investigation or not of the deaths. But this was an entirely different event than what the Israeli police faced. The deaths in Nazareth were caused by racism and the cheap value of an Arab life in the eyes of the Israeli police.

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amir says:

July 24, 2007 at 11:10 AM

I knew that there was an additional Palestinian Arab killed, but I wanted to make my post shorter. But there was also an Israeli Jew killed, which everyone seems to forget. Jan Bachor, 53 years old and father of two boys and two girls from Rishon Letzion was killed after being pelted with “stones” striking his chest by “youths” from Jasr al-Zarka.

there was utter chaos in the streets. Entire portions of the city went up in flames Police and firemen were pelted with stones and bottles. Stores were looted and burned in many neighborhoods. Residential complexes were torched.

Jeez, this sounds like a good descpription of what was going on in Wadi Ara and Nazareth at the time. Like I said, I didn’t read the report so I can’t comment about the behavior of the police at every incident, that day, but obviously you haven’t read it either.

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 24, 2007 at 11:29 AM

I didn’t know an Israeli Jew was killed. This is horrible.

Do you mean to tell me that a city of 6 million people going up in flames & in utter chaos is the same as what happened in Nazareth?? Puh-leeze. How do you justify Israeli police killing unarmed demonstrators???

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amir says:

July 24, 2007 at 12:03 PM

You seem to not understand the scale of events those days. First of all look at the map on this page: http://elyon1.court.gov.il/heb/veadot/or/d.htm. This is from the website of Israel’s supreme court. Each circle represents a confrontation between police and rioters in the north only. At wikipedia in Hebrew there is a full chronology of events those days. For exmple – the first on the list is in Um el-Fahm: “there was a quiet and peaceful demonstration which dispersed. A group of people went to the main road (a major artery between east and west) blocked the road and threw stones. More people joined them and pelted the police with stones. The police responded with tear gas and rubber bullets. the police tried to overtake the junction and were attacked with burning tires, steel bars and a molotov cocktail. After the molotov cocktail was thrown, the police opened with live fire. Two of the arabs were killed 40 civilians and 7 police officers were injured.” And it goes on and on. this was not a case of police firing on peaceful demonstrators. In Tamra demonstrators blocked traffic stopped cars and checked ID cards. Jewish drivers were beaten up. In Arabe the police station was completely destroyd by “demonstrators”. Majd el-Crom police were attacked with molotov cocktails. in Nazareth the police were shot at with live ammunition. And the list goes on and on. Buses, cars and businesses were set on fire including an Arab restaurant (not bedouin) because the owner flew an Israeli flag. After the first day, 2 Arabs were killed, 58 policemen were injured, and scores of Jewish civilians were injured. This went on for 10 days. I can’t vouch for every shot fired by every cop, but when I think of the scope of the riots and the danger the rioters posed to civilians like myself, I support the police overall. And I’m grateful that there are still people willing to take positions which place them at risk in order to protect me and my family.

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Jimmy Collins says:

July 24, 2007 at 2:19 PM

ME: So let me get this straight my initial statement was SPOT ON? NO?

RICHARD: No, you said he was charged but provided no proof of this. Amir provided proof, you didn’t. As for calling him “an Israeli Arab” he is a Bedouin which is an imprecise ethnic classification on yr part.

So I made a statement which was actually accurate. For which Richard called me a propogandist and essentially a liar. (see my exact quote of him above)

But……………………….. according to Richard now because I provided no proof of my recollection, which turned out to be correct, I am still a propogandist and a liar and it’s still ok that Richard even though he turned out to be wrong… called me a name…

And now this gentleman still doesn’t have the class to simply say I’m sorry you were actually correct and I shouldn’t have called you a cheap insulting name?

Instead, he insulted me again, as I quoted above, after he knew he was wrong.
NOW AGAIN, here is my initial statement:

Incidentally in the case of the British reporter that was shot if I remember correctly that soldier was in fact charged based on testimony of other IDF soldiers… Further, just for the record that soldier was an Israeli Arab serving in the IDF as a good number in fact do, particularly in the most dangerous zones, such as Rafah.

NOW COMPARE RICHARD’S 3RD REPLY WITHOUT AN ADMISSION OR AN APOLOGY TO MY STATEMENT ABOVE…

Get of yr high horse. I erred and if I insulted you & yr integrity (here comes another excuse..)you fully deserved it for other reasons (an admission and apology if I ever heard one?) than yr statement that Hayb was “charged” which turned out to be correct (though you didn’t authenticate it). You’ve made so many other errors here which I have verified that I have no compunction attacking yr credibility.
As for apologies, you can wait till Hell freezes over for one. People who come here & write in bad faith don’t get velvet glove treatment. People who disagree w. me here but do so in good faith have gotten apologies from me when I’ve been proven wrong. As for you, fughedaboudit!

You were just proven wrong. Is this how you teach your kids to apologize and act like men?

And yet the venom goes on…

Here’s something for you to chew on. Why don’t you present some statistics showing us how many IDF soldiers or Border Police officers are ever charged with violations of human rights or crimes against Palestinians. Or tell me why the Border Police who shot 12 Nazareth Arabs dead in cold blood in 2000 were never charged w. any violation.

AND THIS HAS WHAT?? exactly to do with the case I mentioned of the filmaker shot in Gaza?

Btw, can you provide statistics for your thrown in anectdote?
The entire Arab world disagrees with you?

Yet more avoidance, venom and obfuscation….

Then we can determine whether the Hayb prosecution is the exception that proves the rule; or whether it is the norm as it should be if Israel were truly democratic & the IDF was truly accountable. I note that after my repeating this fact twice earlier you’ve refused to address it. Why would that be?

Again, what does this have to do with me mentioning the case above and the outcome? NOTHING…

Did I make any statement about the track record of prosecutions? NO….

Did Richard impugn my integrity and turn out to be WRONG? Yes…

Did he admit his mistake like a man and simply move on…? NO….

And now Big Brother throws in another threat……

‘Threaten?’ Hardly. Warning you that you violate my comment rules is just that, a warning. And go check out those rules. They say you must support charges w. real evidence. You didn’t do that which I why I warned you. You can choose to adhere to my rules as I explain them to you or not. It’s yr choice. But to call this a threat is ridiculous.

Very sad….

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 24, 2007 at 5:18 PM

Jimmy Collins: It goes on an on ad nauseum. You repeat yrself endlessly. You say nothing new. You ask me to apologize. I say no. Then you remonstrate yet again about the heinousness of my refusal. Sorry but I’ve got better things to do. I’ve relieved you of yr responsibilities to monitor this site for yr brethren in Zion. I may change my mind at some pt. & resume yr access. Check back if you wish.

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 25, 2007 at 12:20 AM

After the molotov cocktail was thrown, the police opened with live fire. Two of the arabs were killed 40 civilians and 7 police officers were injured

Knowing the provocation that is standard procedure with Israeli Border Police, I have to wonder what type of interaction there was bet. the demonstrators & police that could have escalated the situation beyond what it would otherwise have been. Also, is it a proportionate use of force to open fire on demonstrators for throwing a molotov cocktail killing 2 & wounding 40?

in Nazareth the police were shot at with live ammunition

You do not provide a source & I would question this contention w/o one. You said something about Hebrew Wikipedia. But there must be an original source to this claim & I’d like to see it if there is one. I’ve never heard or read anywhere that Arabs shot at police.

BTW, English Wikipedia notes that at least one demonstrator WAS killed by Border Police. Perhaps you’d like to take back my claim that BOrder Police were not involved in these incidents?

In Jat, Rami Khatem Gharra was shot in the eye by Border Policeman Rashed Murshid, and later died of his injuries. Murshid was firing rubber bullets at 15 metres towards the upper body, in contravention to that weapon’s non-lethal operation directive to be used at longer range towards the lower body.

And since you’re proud of the police behavior during the disturbances I’m sure you’re equally proud of this behavior (also fr. Wikipedia):

Misleh Hussein Abu Jarad from Deir al-Balah in the Gaza Strip was killed and at least seven others were injured in Umm al-Fahm, after Commander of the Northern District, Alik Ron, gave orders to snipers to open fire with live-ammunition on stone-throwers in contravention with Police procedure.

Walid Abdul-Menem Abu Saleh, 21, and Emad Farraj Ghanaym, 25, were killed in an industrial area in the Sakhnin area/Misgav Regional Council, when police fired live ammunition to disperse stone-throwers.[12] Walid was shot in the head and Emad in the heart.[4]

It seems that it is standard Israeli police procedure to shoot to kill at stone throwing demonstrators. Would they react the same way to Jewish demonstrators?

Also, the death of the single Jewish victim of the disturbances did NOT occur as you claim:

A Jewish citizen, Bachor Jann from Rishon LeZion, was killed after being hit by a stone thought to have been thrown by those taking part in the protests in Jisr az-Zarqa while driving on the Haifa-Tel Aviv freeway

While his death was till heinous & uncalled for. Throwing a stone at a passing car on the freeway & killing a driver is not the same as beating someone to death (as you claimed happened) & would not be prosecuted as such in a court of law. And btw, I note you named this victim & mourned him (in which I join you). But why have you not similar compassion for the Arab victims & why have you neither mourned nor named them? Don’t they merit yr compassion?

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amir says:

July 25, 2007 at 10:25 AM

Perhaps you’d like to take back my claim that BOrder Police were not involved in these incidents?

I said

to the best of my recollection they were for the most part confronted by regular police and not border police.

I haven’t “mourned” anyone. I mentioned his name so you wouldn’t think i was making it up. The point is that this is not a case of police shooting into crowds of peaceful demonstrators like one might think from your description of this event, but rather an attempt by police to protect civilians from the wrath of a mob.
This is how the events in Nazareth transpired according to the Or commision: Oct 1, Hundreds of demonstrators took to the streets after calls at a mosque to go out to the biggest demonstration the city has known. At the same time they were joined by a march of the Islamic movement to the city center … 1,500 participants. The demonstrators shouted “Allahu Akbar” and “Khayber, Khayber, Jews the army of Mohammed will return.” (If you don’t know about the battle of Khaybar you may want to read about it in wikipedia to see what a peaceful slogan that is.) After the demonstration tires were burned, stones thrown etc. In the afternoon Bank Hapolim and several other stores were set on fire. The police were attacked with stones, sling shots, firecrackers and fireworks. Dozens of people attacked the police station. The police used a lot of tear gas and rubber bullets to disperse them. The report then mentions two additional incidents; at 14:00 a woman named Nasrin Asili was beaten by police who claimed that she pushed them. They are being investigated by the unit which investigates police. And, at 19:30 a policeman was shot with live ammunition while the police were at Paulus street near the Burger King which was looted shortly before, and according to witnesses was set on fire. Several bullets were fired at the police which hit officer Meir Asolin in the leg and he was hospitalized.
source: http://elyon1.court.gov.il/heb/veadot/or/inside2.htm Paragraph 33B.
It’s really a no brainer. Arab politicians and religious leaders incited riots which posed an obvious danger to the safety of the public and the police and the police responded in the best manner they could in accordance to their preparation. I think they should be thanked, not punished. That doesn’t mean that every single use of gunfire was justified. In fact, because of the large number of injured policeman, and the fact that the riots lasted 10 days, it is obvious that the amount of force used was disproportionate, disproportionately low that is.
The Or commision was only set up because Barak was afraid of losing the Arab vote. He lost it anyway. if I was a policeman, I wouldn’t vote for Barak.

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amir says:

July 25, 2007 at 11:24 AM

Jann Bachor was killed by a rock which was dropped on his car from a bridge while his wife was driving. The rock was so big the it penetrated the window and struck him on the chest killing him. Though suspects were arrested they were released and no one was charged. I was able to gather these details from different Hebrew posts including court protocols, but it was very difficult because there has been very little interest in his case, and the information is very sparse. Also, there are at least 3 or 4 spelling of Jann in Hebrew.

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amir says:

July 25, 2007 at 11:30 AM

Correction, it wasn’t his wife driving, it was his brother.
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-163808,00.html

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 27, 2007 at 8:28 PM

The point is that this is not a case of police shooting into crowds of peaceful demonstrators like one might think from your description of this event, but rather an attempt by police to protect civilians from the wrath of a mob.

Then you haven’t read the Wikipedia sources I provided. There are numerous instances in which Arabs were killed or wounded when they were unarmed & not even demonstrating.

it is obvious that the amount of force used was disproportionate, disproportionately low that is.

That is a cruel statement. What, would you have had more than 12 Arabs killed in order to have provided a greater level of safety & security for yr fellow Jewish citizens??

if I was a policeman, I wouldn’t vote for Barak.

I don’t know that I’d vote for him either. But my reasons would be entirely diff.

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amir says:

July 27, 2007 at 10:42 PM

Maybe a more forcefull and early response would have PREVENTED death and injury to BOTH Jewish and Arab citizens.

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Richard Silverstein says:

July 27, 2007 at 11:43 PM

Maybe a more forcefull and early response would have PREVENTED death and injury to BOTH Jewish and Arab citizens.

…Or else provoked a full blown internal Israeli intifada that, instead of lasting 10 days, might’ve lasted 10 months or 10 years.

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amir says:

September 17, 2007 at 11:58 AM

On July 9th, three justices of the 9th circuit Court of Appeals heard arguments from lawyers representing Rachel Corrie’s family and Caterpillar about the former’s lawsuit over their daughter’s 2003 death under the treads of an IDF operated bulldozer

And you can find the decision here: http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/6DFD4322CA06B5FA88257359005660A6/$file/0536210.pdf?openelement

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Richard Silverstein says:

September 17, 2007 at 12:26 PM

Thanks for the link. It is a very sad decision and one I hope they will appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. I am glad that Rachel Corrie is getting the day in court she deserves and that her memory is being respected by bringing the issues involved in her murder before the legal community and American public.

I note that the Corrie’s lawyer, Erwin Chemerinsky, one of the country’s most distinguished constitutional scholars, was denied a position as dean of UC Irvine’s new law school because local S. California Republican nincompoops derailed his appointment using this as one of the grounds. There is hell to pay for upholding the rights of individuals and forcing public scrutiny upon them.

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Andrew G. says:

September 18, 2007 at 7:30 AM

Maybe my approach is colored by having been a lawyer for the past 25 years or so, but here goes:

1. Tort liability on the part of Caterpillar is wrong. It is generally accepted law that the manufacturer of a legal product is not liable for the wrongful act of a third party — for example, should Ford or General Motors be liable if one of their cars is used in a bank robbery? To argue that Caterpillar knew or should have known that the bulldozers would be used in a “war crime” creates a huge due process problem for Caterpillar. There is no way to compel the cooperation of the IDF in this case, which would be essential. For the 9th Circuit to hold otherwise, and presume the existence of a war crime, would have our courts making foreign policy independent of the other branches of government.

2. The plaintiffs were simply in the wrong court. If there was a human rights violation, they could have brought it in Israel, which has a very independent judiciary, and would have jurisdiction over the IDF. If the Israeli legal system were to hold that the home demolition program is not a “war crime”, the Israeli courts are entitled to the same deference that we would give to Canada or Britain.

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Richard Silverstein says:

September 18, 2007 at 10:46 PM

If there was a human rights violation, they could have brought it in Israel, which has a very independent judiciary, and would have jurisdiction over the IDF.

I don’t know how much you know about the Israeli judiciary but its independence, esp. in cases involving national security, terror & oversight of the IDF is decidedly in question.

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Andrew G. says:

September 19, 2007 at 7:21 AM

Many Israelis groan about the Supreme Court in the same way that some Americans groaned about Earl Warren a generation ago. The Court has held the government’s feet to the fire on many occasions, and on the separation wall, has caused work to be halted or rerouted.

Many states, including Virginia where I practice, have enacted the Uniform Foreign Country Money-Judgments Recognition Act. Under that statute, assuming personal and subject matter jurisdiction, a judgment of a foreign court can be docketed in a state court, under the same principles as a judgment of another state under the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution. This does not apply where the foreign judgment was “rendered under a system which does not provide impartial tribunals or procedures compatible with the requirements of due process of law.” Thus, a judgment from a British court can be docketed in Illinios (which as adopted the UFCMJRA) or Virginia, but not a judgment from Burma.

The plaintiffs could have sued in Israel, and if they obtained a judgment against Caterpillar, then dockted that judgment in Illinois under the UFCMJRA. The language in the statute refers to the “system”, i.e. is the judicial system of the foreign country independent and does it provide for due process of law. In the Corrie case, the plaintiff’s “forum shopped”, hoping that they would find success in the Ninth Circuit, when they could have brought an action in a court that has jurisdiction over all of the participants.

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Richard Silverstein says:

September 19, 2007 at 6:45 PM

The plaintiffs could have sued in Israel, and if they obtained a judgment against Caterpillar

But they never could for the reasons I enunciated clearly in my earlier comment. The Israeli High Court would never second guess intelligence or military decisions even if they WERE worthy of sanction for reasons that have to do w. Israeli inability or unwillingness to exercise the judicial perogative of oversight.

Many Israelis groan about the Supreme Court in the same way that some Americans groaned about Earl Warren a generation ago. The Court has held the government’s feet to the fire on many occasions, and on the separation wall, has caused work to be halted or rerouted.

That’s perfectly true. In some instances the Court has shown great courage & sound judgment. And in others it has completely absconded fr. its judicial responsibility (usually when the case involves Palestinians or second guessing or punishing military violations of law or morality).

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