NB: Yay for censorship!

he got caught red-handed for treason. There’s no evidence to counter it

In fact, the opposite is the case. The evidence is tenuous at best as Haaretz has reported. And you have no idea what the evidence is in any detail nor do you know what evidence may counter it. You’re speaking solely out of prejudice & w/o any basis in fact.

The soviet system wasn’t much of an influence on me though; I defied the attempts of the elementary school and the high school to indoctrinate me. I am as disgusted of communist ideology and methodology today as I was back when I was a kid; probably even more now than then since I’ve learned its mechanics. Yeah, my views are probably are bizzare and can’t be easily aligned with any of the single minded ideologies on the bullshit market of today. This is because every single one of them is a result of my own conclusions, and not of Chomsky’s or Coulter’s making. If anyone can help me improve them, go ahead and seed me some facts.

And guns in Israel? Well, not today, no, with all the security checks and terrorism, but someday maybe? I am a firm believer that everyone has a right to own, carry and use a gun. I also believe that many registered guns is better than many unregistered guns, and two well known places where everyone has guns - Switzerland and US’s own Kennesaw city - are a hard proof that mandatory gun ownership REDUCES gun crime. I really dont care that some people are afraid of guns. It’s a problem that they have to deal with, and it’s not a valid reason to impose restrictions on other people’s right of self defense and retaliation.

And me, with libertarians? And Aryan nation? Haha. I don’t believe in either a particular form of running a country or in supremacy of one people over the other. What I do believe in though is reasoning based in facts and science, not in religion, fear or moral values. If some people are black, we refer to them as black. If some people are white, we refer to them as white. If some white people are thieves and some black people are rapists, it is appropriate to call these people “white thieves” and “black rapists”. What is not appropriate is to attach labels to all white people or all black people; however, it would’ve been appropriate if absolute majority of white people were thieves and absolute majority of black people were rapists. You would also do that if /some/ white people were thieves and the /rest/ of white people were not but did not actively oppose theft. This is the situation with “palestinians” and terrorism, so please do not put me and the Aryan nation in the same basket.

My view on Bishara case is this: he got caught red-handed for treason. There’s no evidence to counter it, there’s circumstancial evidence establishing that he is not beyond doing that, and according to you yourself, the matter must be very serious if the Supreme Court got involved. So they will get to him and they will try him and if they find him guilty I would not be running around crying conspiracy because from the outlook of it all, in absence of formal dialogue, looks very much like he did in fact commit treason. We will know very soon.

I simply do not recognize “palestinians” as a nation.

This is one of my red line subjects. No one may write any comment in this blog which denies the existence or legitimacy of the Israeli or Palestinians peoples. Repeat this fallacious calumny & your comment will be deleted & depending on how pissed off I feel you may be banned from further commenting.

Jews and Israelis exist and deserve to have their names capitalized as is common accepted usage as do Palestinians and Arabs. If you cannot accord them the recognition and respect that they deserve, then you will not be accorded any respect here.

Your views are an incredbily bizarre amalgam. I credit that to the poisoning and oppression you must’ve experienced under the Soviet system. The idea of folks like you carrying those guns in Israel frightens the mind. Some of yr views I agree with but most I find repugnant.

You would be pretty much right at home with radical libertarians or even the Aryan nation (except for their virulent anti-Semitism) here in the States.

shameless liars such as Said (PBUH! LOL) and other no less respectable folks dare to compare this country and this particular bus ride to actual african style appartheid,

You took a ride on a public bus & this persuaded you somehow that Israel is a rainbow nation that doesn’t oppress its Arab minority? That’s a wonder!

Your view of what will happen in the Bishara case is very far off the mark.

“Palestinians” are indeed people. Poor people and opressed people who are suffering, and we’re the ones who directly cause that suffering with our roadblocks, helicopters, searches and detainings; but we aren’t doing that because we don’t like their skin color or the way they talk. We’re doing because we know some of these people are brainwashed to hurt us, and the rest don’t seem to mind. As long as the “palestinian” people choose to remain the loyal sheep of their terrorist masters, we will slaughter them like cattle because that’s in the long term cheaper, easier and smarter to slaughter them so that they do not slaughter us.

Now you seek for some reason to embrace the arab rights in Israel and to ensure their equality. This is by itself a great and noble goal, and it’s not far beyond the horizon either. However, when it comes to religion and culture, that is an entirely different matter.

I want Israel to be a secular state. You know, a place where men don’t throw stones at women? A secular state is one step closer to freedom, since the guilt and prejudice would be removed from the society as independent factors. I would like to see a place where everyone is bound by law to have a gun, and many people do carry guns. I would also like restrictions on mind altering drugs lifted, and I want anyone and everyone trying to bring any of this back prosecuted for treason. I want a small government under public scrutiny, I want state-insured academic education, I want first priority to environmental concerns. I want low, flat rate taxes. I want any attempt to deliberately oppose development of technology, science or art to become a crime. Oh yeah you know what else should be criminal? Trying to parasite. Right now, they are eating, partying and studying on my expense. Off the taxes I paid. In my ideal Israel, organized religion would be condemned. I mean, they don’t mind stopping me on the street and telling me that I am a bad jew. How about I turn the tables? How about I stand up and say “Hey! *You* are the religious freaks! *You* need help!

Freedom of religion is great in the same sense as freedom of schizophrenia is great. Before you get all wound up about liberties and rights, think of the following example:

Guy A screws guy B’s girlfriend. Guy B shoots guy A. When cops arrive, he says “I didn’t shoot him, the gun in my hand did!” and the cops go like “Oh! Okay then!” and go back to their donuts. Nonsense? Yet this is exactly what happens with religion. Everytime someone does or says something universally disgusting that’s rooted in religion, people jump the wagon and cry freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is bullshit, if the people are not allowed to copulate in front of children, they should not be talking about god in front of children either. Why do we tolerate this at all? Why is being religious a carte blanche to anything these days?

So why would you want to encourage MORE religion? Worse yet, why would you encourage the venomous, addictive religion of hate as opposed to useless and harmless Judaism? Let me ask you this: when you read about that person who was fired for being an atheist; are you shocked? I am. Thank God I grew up in secular Russia, where none of this church sponsored guilt bullshit was tolerated. So again; why would you encourage ANY religion at all and following that, why would you encourage a particularly nasty one?

There shouldn’t be a freedom of religion outside of your own house.

And no, it’s not their country and our country. It’s our country. Two thousands years of persecution makes it our country. And that makes everyone else our guest. Yeah, many things we do to harm them are deliberate (and probably a greater lot is due thanks to stupidity and incompetence of those in charge) , but they aren’t immoral. If we do let these people thrive as they are now, they will focus their energy on one and only one thing: our destruction. They need to be educated, and they need to be cut off from their terrorist friends before we can possibly consider them to be equal. Imagining that someone is equal to you is a great thing and all unless that someone is aiming a gun to your head at that very moment. So, as I always said, it’s our country, and they should be grateful for whatever we give them. Instead they somehow think it’s a right.

You listed a bunch of misdeeds by Israeli government and people in your previous post. Since I don’t intend to continue debating this beyond making my perspective clear, I wouldn’t be following my usual habit of following up every allegation and accusation with 5-7 documented cases of “palestinians” blowing themselves up. I refuse to accept the recently popular idea that it is we the Jews in Israel who are the problem. The “palestinians”, the U.S. government, Putin, Egypt, Syria, Iran and Iraq are the problem. Islam, Christianity and Judaism are the problem. Old people in the establishment are the problem. Stupid, incompetent and mentally ill are the problem. We’re merely putting this problem away with our missiles and kidnapped soldiers and torn apart civilians, but we are sure as hell not the problem.

And on hystrionics: when I took my daily bus ride today, I realized that the bus was full of people of different races and colors. There were some Ethiopians, some Thai workers, some Philipino women, some people speaking Spanish and a black guy reading a free bus station paper. Someone next to me was talking on the cell in Russian. Israel might not be a perfectly run country, but if shameless liars such as Said (PBUH! LOL) and other no less respectable folks dare to compare this country and this particular bus ride to actual african style appartheid, that’s where I draw the bullshit line. This is bullshit; freedom of religion is bullshit; peace now is bullshit; the “palestinian problem” is bullshit; respecting liars because they are, you know, dead, too, is bullshit; one state solution is bullshit and two state solution looks like a pile of bullshit. Pre-1967 is bullshit. There’s so much bullshit in this whole thing that sometimes I catch myself actually believing in the crap they’re telling me.

Which is why I use quotes on “palestinians”: it’s bullshit. They’re not a real nation and I wanna remind people that their claim is nowhere near as sophisticated and legitimate as people think. In other words, it’s bullshit too.

Oh, yeah, I’ve been watching the Bishara case too. I’m not as puzzled anymore though, because it appears that the story is due to end soon. There’s no mystery to it anymore, all that’s left is to wait for formal charges, extradition (capture), a loud high treason trial, and another martyr made in the name of a false cause to be released in 5-7 years when the next bunch of 18 year olds gets kidnapped by another bunch of 18 year olds.

Is he going to be your martyr too, now?

Israel must remain a “Jewish first” state. Israel carries the modern Hebrew culture and tries to follow western standards.

Giving Arabs equality will not in any way whatsoever diminish the Jewish character of the state. But it would no longer be “Jewish first.” Instead it would be Jewish and Arab co-equally. Modern Hebrew culture, language and the Jewish religion would be fully respected as would Arabic & Islam.

As for “western standards,” I resent the notion that Arabs are somehow primitive and “non-western” while Israelis are modern and “western.” This is a ridiculous borderline racist notion.

Israel - the only democratic country in the area and the only liberal country in the area

It is much more complicated than that. Israeli is a democracy only for its Jewish citizens. In fact, respected Israeli academics have more correctly called Israel an “ethnocracy,” that is a state that provides superior rights for the majority ethnic group and truncated rights for the minority.

When I go down into the city to buy cigarettes, I don’t mind walking into an arab store (and often do so). I have no problem with minorities

That’s mighty “white” of you. You actually patronize (literally as well as figuratively) Arab stores. That’s one strike for “liberal” Israelis like you. You actually tolerate yr minorities!

It’s just that I myself do not want to turn into a minority. It is my country.

NO. It is your country AND their country. They have just as much claim to it as you. They lived here before you and your relatives came here. Of course, you and they have a claim to the land too. But your claim in no way supercedes theirs.

I don’t need to resort to violence to secure that.

Ah, but you DO. You need to murder 12 Israeli Arabs in cold blood in Nazareth during the First Intifada. You need to deliberately underfund Arab municipalities & provide them pitiful public services compared to Jewish municipalities. You need to prevent them from securing building permits so their communities cannot grow and absorb populations increases. Your Jewish politicians need to accuse them of treason and advocate their forced transfer. You need to do all these things and more to secure your superior claim to the land. You need to repress, oppress, expropriate, criminalize, etc. If you didn’t you are afraid that this minority might actually compete for and win rights which you wish to prohibit them at all costs. It’s a pity you don’t see the bankruptcy of yr position.

one state in which Jewish de facto rights (as opposed to de jure of today) will be equal to or lesser than of arabs

If the rights of the two peoples are inscribed in a Constitution as equal there is no way Jewish rights could ever be lesser than Arab rights no matter who is the majority or minority. This system exists in other countries so don’t tell me it can’t work in Israel.

But I’m curious what frightens you so about having “equal” rights to Arabs. Your own Declaration of Independence guarantees Arabs equal rights. Are you opposed to what’s inscribed in this sacred nationa document?

Oh, remember, those are the same people who danced on the streets.

And you don’t think Jews did the equivalent when Arafat died (or was murdered by the Mossad as Sharon has hinted) or when Rabin was assassinated? There is no lack for primitive emotion & vengeance on both sides of this conflict.

Uri Avnery and friends would like to see is Israel granting its enemies a safe passage into its heart, where they can devour it, and devour it they shall, no doubt of that

Histrionics pure & simple.

if well being of Israel matters to you

Israel’s well-being matters to me. But Israel to me includes Jews AND Arabs. And the long term interests of a state that includes Jews and Arabs is that they co-exist in peace and justice. That will create a long term state that is viable, stable and free. Your method will create a state that eventually will expel all its Arabs or marginalize them into Bantustans. Such oppression will never create stability or viability for you or them. Israel will always have a yoke on its shoulders & never be able to break free of it.

I do see both sides of the issue. I’ve been to the territories, and I’ve spoken to both Israeli arabs and “palestinians”; I am very well aware of “both sides” of the issue; it’s just that I care about the side I am on more than I care about the side they are on. It seems that you wish to concentrate on equality and fairness and human compassion as the final goals; but why do you completely disregard the risks, and the likely negative outcome of what you propose?

Israel must remain a “Jewish first” state. Israel carries the modern Hebrew culture and tries to follow western standards. The people in Israel - the only democratic country in the area and the only liberal country in the area - would rather stay it that way. When I go down into the city to buy cigarettes, I don’t mind walking into an arab store (and often do so). I have no problem with minorities. It’s just that I myself do not want to turn into a minority. It is my country. And you know the great thing? I don’t have to do anything. I don’t have to be a complete and utter asshole to people, I don’t need to burn crosses, I don’t need to resort to violence to secure that. I don’t have to do anything because this is my country /already/, because I reject the territorial claims of the “palestinian” arabs of today on the same ground as I reject Uri Avnery; their opinions are immaterial to me, but not because I deliberately refuse to see the other side; it is because I know that if we let these people have it their way, they will go exactly with what you hope will happen, one state in which Jewish de facto rights (as opposed to de jure of today) will be equal to or lesser than of arabs; and arab population is known to grow at rates that way exceeds that of our own. This is the usual baby boom argument that no one has succeed in debunking yet. Oh, remember, those are the same people who danced on the streets. Not just on 9/11, but also on different bloody occasions in Israel. So what Uri Avnery and friends would like to see is Israel granting its enemies a safe passage into its heart, where they can devour it, and devour it they shall, no doubt of that. Of course, that would probably be equal, fair, compassionate and very human or something, but I don’t care. Neither should you, if well being of Israel matters to you; and if it doesn’t then you probably don’t understand our concerns anyway so what’s the point in arguing?

The Israeli governament and security bodies such as the S.B. are also in an impossible situation, torn between the equal rights owed to all citizens in a democratic country and the true security risks arising from from the growing Israeli Arabs Palestinian identity.

I don’t accept yr premise. There is almost no evidence showing that Israeli Arabs are a security risk. In fact the radicalization of Israeli Arabs began from the cold blooded murder of 13 unarmed Arabs demonstrating during the first Intifada. None of the perpetrators of this massacre ever received ANY discipline. Were you an Israeli Arab how would you have reacted? If despite such criminal abuse the State and Shin Bet continue to believe that they have done nothing to cause this radicalization, then they too are wearing blinders. Tolerance, comity and respect are what is required; not confrontation, threats, belligerence and hate.

Israel will always be a “Jewish first” country, and the Israeli Arabs will always be “Palestinian first” people.

I’m not quite sure what this means esp. the second half of yr statement. Plus, I’m not certain that Israel will ALWAYS be a “Jewish first” country. I foresee a future when Israeli Jews will have national rights commensurate with Israeli Arabs. But such Jewish rights will not exceed or trump Arab rights as they do now. This won’t happen in a day, week or year. But perhaps over time Israeli society will develop in this direction. It must if there is ever to be social comity.

But any Israeli who sees the blame only on one side & doesn’t acknowledge that blame is a wide open 2 way street is fooling himself, indeed deluding himself.

I discard opinions of these people as immaterial.

This is precisely what I mean by Israelis who bury their head in the sand. Ideas & opinions which confirm yr views & prejudices are welcome. THose which clash w. yr views are “immaterial.” How you convince yourself that Uri Avnery has “made up” stories of him own punishment at the hands of the Shin Bet when all of them are confirmed by independent sources is beyond me. But you are welcome to your rose colored version of Mideast reality. Of course, if the lion’s share of Israelis continue the same delusive thinking as you there will never be peace. And for that you can never persuade the world solely to blame the Palestinians.

You must take a risk. You will have to take a risk. Whether you like it or not. Yes, it is dangerous to take risks. Yes, there is risk involved. But the other side will have to take no less a risk than you. That is the only way to peace. To continue with the status quo is death. Death for you (collectively), death for them.

As for the Bishara gag order–you foolishly believe it has to do with imagined Iranian agents. It has nothing to do (or at least very little to do) with that. It has almost wholly to do with the Shin Bet attempting to prevent publicity fr. leaking out & preventing Israeli Arabs & their Jewish allies fr. mounting an effective campaign against the outrage.

I weary of rebutting all of yr various mistaken notions. You’ll go yr way & I’ll go mine. History will prove you wrong & me right. But unfortunately it will take you much blood before you & yr fellow Israelis find a real path to peace.a