Comments on: Israeli Think Tank Warns Against Iran Attack

By: samuel burke

samuel burke — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:14:07 +0000

richard, the israelis and the aipac lobby are both counting on the christian zionist as a fifth column to be called on to defend israel when needed.
we will see it in the near future, they make strange bedfellows indeed. the christian zionist are rabbid about the islamic movement, on the one hand they are preaching the gospel of salvation and on the other they are calling for the anhiliation of the radicals. what a sad message indeed, and all in HIS name.

good luck richard.

By: Richard Silverstein

Richard Silverstein — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 05:15:27 +0000

I agree with you that accusations of anti-Semitism from the right concerning anyone who criticizes Israel are absolutely dead wrong. I should add that regularly these same people accuse me of being a traitor to my own people. It’s really odious and hateful beyond belief.

I appreciate the moderation & tolerance of yr religious views and wish that the Christian Zionists shared some of your willingness to embrace both peoples warring over this small piece of sacred ground.

By: samuel burke

samuel burke — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 04:17:27 +0000

Looking back i noticed that my ramblings were not directly related to the issue under which i posted, for that i apologize. But let me add, that it is my belief that the issue i brought forth is what i consider to be the issue, and that is, that in america a person whether jewish or gentile can be called an anti semite simply for questioning israels policies. Anti semitism conjures up very sad thoughts about what the human character can stoop to when they have bigoted ideas about another group of people who may be different due to a religious belief. today the united states is leading a crusade on islam, this is something for which i as a christian am very much concerned, because christianity with it’s preachers ( not all of course), seems to be leading the way, as a christian it shames me to see what these preachers are doing, all because they profess some kind of zeaolous love for israel.

God help us all.

By: Richard Silverstein

Richard Silverstein — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:44:10 +0000

If you could honestly argue that these people (who, I am afraid, are are actively or passively the majority of Zionists) are NOT Zionists at all — are betraying the principles of Zionism — well, do so by all means.

But I do. That’s virtually the premise of this blog.

I do not posit a Zionism that exists at the expense at another people. That posits supremacy of the Jewish people over minorities within Israel and Israel’s Arab neighbors. Anyone with such an exclusivist vision does not represent my vision of Zionism. I cannot stop such people fr. calling themselves Zionist. But I am unalterable opposed to their vision.

I very much respected Leibowitz. He was a great thinker. There is a progressive stream among Orthodox Zionists & I have great respect for them as well. Rabbi Menachem Froman is another interesting figure you may’ve heard of.

By: itzikl

itzikl — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:42:32 +0000

Richard,
Whatever you think of the above, it seems we’ve gotten off on a tangent from your actual post. So I want to say, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT NEWS. There is no more serious issue right now than Iran and the battle of the psychopaths, Bush/Cheney and Ahminejad. only Bush/Cheney are in reality far more dangerous. My actual reaction to this post was this; we Jews certainly have the resources to develop a rational policy for Israel and the Middle East. The big problem is control of the media, and “muzzling” of people, Jews and non-Jews, who have alternatives. the Internet is an enormous help, but on the other side we have Fox News, CNN, and the rest. You know all this, I’m just saying, that IS the issue. We need something like a Jewish “Netroots” movement. Which i hope can arise out of blogs like yours. — I can encapsulate my position in one sentence. I think that AIPAC is far more dangerous to Jews than iran is.

By: itzikl

itzikl — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:18:47 +0000

Richard,
I understand very well that you are a Zionist and a progressive Zionist, and what that means, but i don’t think you can deny that the oppression Mr Burke refers to stems from certain very widespread and longstanding interpretations of Zionist ideology (including the ultitutde of “Christian Zionists.”) I agree it’s very mportant to point out the distinction, but it’s your “Whoa” and the “too much rhetoric” that I’m reacting to. It seems to me the term “Zionist oppression” is a perfectly objective and defensible term. If you, as a Zionist, are uncomfortable with it, well that’s understandable, it’s in the nature of the position you find yourself in — but that’s hardly Mr Burke’s fault.
If you could honestly argue that these people (who, I am afraid, are are actively or passively the majority of Zionists) are NOT Zionists at all — are betraying the principles of Zionism — well, do so by all means. The world could use such a fundamental analysis. The late Yeshayahu Leibowitz did SOMETHING like that in arguing that “Zionism” is not an ideology, it’s only a framework. Unfortunately, for almost everyone but him it does seem to be an ideology, and certainly one with a very heavy propaganda component.
I think something very similar exists among orthodox Jews. The majority of Orthodox Jews today are Zionists, but there is a very sizeable minority that are not. Except that among that minority are many that are just as extreme against Palestinians, or even more so, and just as fanatical, or more so. So those that are orthodox and truly againt what israel is doing to the Palestinians are a minority of a minority. i always rejoice to meet such Jews, but i do not meet them very often.
Nevertheless, even among the Neturei Karta, you will rarely hear them admit this obvious fact. Their version is that Zionism is a secular ideology (which it is), but they ignore the fact that thanks to the great Rav Kook and others it has long since become a religious ideology as well, and one, i would argue, that is utterly distorting the Jewish religion.

By: samuel burke

samuel burke — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:29:34 +0000

i understand, like i said before, i am glad to have found these blogs expressing the moderate voice among jewish americans, i am learning a lot from reading them. i also see how your ( the lefts) positions are disparaged, the rosenfeld write up was an attempt to threaten the dissenting jewish voice with the epithet of anti semite if you do not support israel. Did you see the ariel toaf story? he is the professor who wrote the book that he claimed he would defend even if crucified ( his own words from an haaretz write up), and a short time later must have had been forced to cease and desist. it is an ugly pressure to have to live under. My parents lived under one of those bolshevik communist governments where free speech is never heard and when it dares to raise its voice, it is suffocated with threats and repressive oppression. We are living in interesting times. i am just a student of these events and am watching them develop like a picture from an old polaroid camera. i read the israeli press along with a few jewish newspapers here in the u.s to learn how this community is evolving within this struggle, i cut my teeth on this issue with the orthodox groups that are not zionist, jews against zionism,true torah jews and the karaites, i prefer their position since i believe it to be more in line with the GOD of the old testament.

best of wishes to you richard.

By: Richard Silverstein

Richard Silverstein — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:09:25 +0000

your quest to help your people separate themselves from these zionist oppressors

Whoa. That’s a little too much rhetoric for me. I consider myself a progressive Zionist so let’s be clear that there are a number of varieties of Zionists out there. Let’s not lump all of us together as one evil bunch.

By: samuel burke

samuel burke — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:48:43 +0000

i enjoy reading your weblog as it helps me to understandt the positions of what is called the american jewish left. As a christian, i once supported israel blindly and was oblivious to any of the palestinians claims. I have read jimmy carters book on the palestinian/israeli situation and listened to the webcast of his visit to brandeis and read about the hullabaloo surrounding the dean of that university, and the upset donors who are forcing this academic institution to stifle the exchange of ideas on a college campus. It has been an eye opening experience for me to learn how the aipac lobby and the zionist jewish american organizations in america oppress anyone who has dared to stand up and take a position apart from theirs, george stephanopolous had jimmy carter on his weekend show “this week in washington” and on that show president carter went on to say, live over the air waves, that members of our congress would be commiting political suicide if they dont kowtow to the aipac lobby, he said that they fear being tagged as anti semitc, i can not understand why the press does not pick up on these issues and deal with them openly before the american public.

good luck to you in your quest to help your people separate themselves from these zionist oppressors before the american public wakes up and jumbles you all in one large group.

By: Richard Silverstein

Richard Silverstein — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:35:07 +0000

Amir: Perhaps you didn’t understand what I wrote. I AM against a war with Iran whether it is Israel or the U.S. that attacks. While I do support Israel, I do not support an attack on your country.

I assure you I do not laugh at you. I value your participation here and I worry for your welfare should the worst happen.

Barack Obama is African-American and not Jewish. Hillary Clinton is much less sympathetic to your country & its leadership than you seem to realize.