I don’t need to remind you that that there are equivalents in Israel and the greater Jewish community that can be deemed just as bad or even worse than their Christian counterparts.

Of course you are absolutely right. There is much religion & ethnic-based hatred in Israeli politics & religious life. One of the main purposes of this blog is to critique aspects of Israeli life that I find objectionable like the racism of Avigdor Lieberman to take but one example.

don’t be too surprised when people look at Jewish Zionists and Israel with the same disdain.

I would certainly expect anti-Zionists and Palestinian extreme rejectionists to feel this way about Israel. But I don’t lose any sleep over that. The rest of the world has its concerns regarding Israel in proper perspective & doesn’t reject Israel’s existence. But rather objects to Israeli policy toward its Arab minority or toward the Palestinians, which is an entirely acceptable approach toward Israel.

What would be the joy of Hanukkah from a Jewish child’s perspective?

Hanukah has until relatively recently been a minor holiday in the Jewish calendar. For more on the tension involved in the holiday’s history see this post I wrote on the subject. Historically, there wouldn’t have been any presents. Just lighting of menorahs, songs and blessings and perhaps warm winter foods like potato latkes. The presents came more recently in a slavish imitation of Christian Christmas traditions.

But today, Jewish children enjoy the holiday by spinning the dreidel, sharing Hanukah gelt (chocolate coins), singing Hanukah songs and opening presents. Thankfully, Hanukah is not the bankrupting, obssessive compulsive holiday Christmas can be for many Christians. It is a more modest affair.

You rebutted my suggestion that Israel have a more religiously inclusive flag

You’re not understanding the double-edged nature of my response to you. I said very clearly that I personally would welcome an Israeli flag that displayed more inclusiveness & embrace of the ethnic diversity of Israel’s population. However, there is a separate reality that is the wishes of Israeli Jews. I don’t control these. I critique such exclusivist & even racist attitudes here in this blog. I don’t embrace or represent them. I merely told you how difficult it would be to change those attitudes. So don’t confuse the messenger with the message.

While you are willing to grant some rights to non-Jewish minorities in Israel, you have made it clear that you are not willing to grant all the rights that Jews in Israel possess.

No, ISRAEL currently grants “some rights” to “non-Jewish minorities.” I, on the other hand, would be willing to grant virtually equal rights to Israel’s minorities. But the one thing that neither I nor the vast majority of Israeli Jews will compromise on is that the State is a Jewish homeland. Being so, does not necessarily mean that other minorities must perforce suffer 2nd class status (though that is currently clearly the case).

you are fortunate to be a Jew in predominantly Christian America as opposed to a Christian in predominantly Jewish Israel.

If you are claiming that Christians in Israel are complaining of their status I wish you’d point out a single incidence of such an individual making such a complaint. And if you’re merely seeking to use such Christians to represent all Israeli minorities, you’ve made an unfortunate choice since Israel’s Christian minority is treated far better than its Muslim minority.

The United States is an exception in its support of a Jewish state and this is primarily due to its conservative Christian character.

I have no idea what this means. But if you’re saying that conservative Christians are more likely to support Israel because of some affinity with Biblical traditions, there may be some modest amount of truth to that. But keep in mind that the Jewish Bible is a secondary book for Christians compared to the New Testament. Also, keep in mind that there have been plenty of “conservative Christian” countries which have betrayed murderous hatred of Jews. So American support for Israel much be explained by a diversity of causes, religious beliefs or traditions being only one of them.

Israel is widely condemned in very broad terms in Africa, South and Central America, Europe, the U.N., etc.

As usual, you’re overstating yr case and also not stating it precisely. Israeli POLICIES are widely condemned. But not the existence of Israel itself. There is a vast diff. bet. the 2. You are the one who deplores Israel’s current form of existence & wish to place yourself in the glow of universal international disapproval of Israel’s nature. But most people in the world don’t share that view of Israel. They want Israel to stop making war against its neighbors. To end the Occupation. To be a peaceful, law-abiding world citizen.

While you may claim that Europe is inherently anti-Semitic

Why on earth would you say that?? It completely mischaracterizes my real views on the subject. All you had to do was do a site search here on the term “European anti-Semitism” & you’d find that I do battle practically every month w. some uber-Israel knucklehead or other claiming that Europe is awash w. raving Jew haters. A little research before you assume someone’s views goes a long way.

Israel, an inherently conservative state founded on Judaism.

Again, I have no idea what you mean by “inherently conservative.” In any case, it is not true as Israel was founded on socialist ideals, not conservative ones. One could easily argue (as I do) that it never realized those ideals esp. not in its treatment of minorities. But yr interpretation is wholly yr own & those of the anti-Zionist margins.

The E.U has long ago discarded the idea that religion or historical culture matter

A patently wrong-headed statement. Most European countries ARE Christian with many of them having a Christian state religion. To say that Europe has abandoned religion or historical culture is wrong on its face.

and has accepted millions of Muslim immigrants into Europe

Why is it that Europe’s “accepting millions of Muslim immigrants” means it has “discarded” it religious or historical culture? This too is a preposterous notion.

if I was a Jewish supporter of Israel I would be favorable toward any group that believes that Jews have a moral right to their own state in Palestine.

Including groups whose views you find repugnant? Such as right-wing evangelical Christians? Or the Shah of Iran? Sorry, but I’m favorable toward groups who support Israel whose own religious-moral agendas are consonant with my own. The Israeli government clearly feels differently as it encourages even the most noxious Christian Zionist support. But this is not my view.

Remember, its not a given that Israel will continue to exist.

You needn’t remind me. And if views such as yours held sway indeed Israel would not continue to exist.

please don’t try and tell me that the founding fathers were the ideological forerunners of the ACLU.

Indeed, I will as it is true.

I have sat through law school classes taught by professors who were members of the ACLU. They deprecate the idea that the Constitution should be interpreted based on the intent of the founding fathers back in 1789.

Now you are repurposing my argument for yr own agenda. I did not say the ACLU was founded on an intent to slavishly parrot the original intent of the Founding Fathers. Besides I don’t know how you can interpret the “intent” of individuals living over 200 years ago. What I did say was that the ACLU was founded to protect cherished rights first enunciated by our Founding Fathers in documents like the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The last thing the ACLU wants is to have the same relationship between church and state as existed between Christianity and the newly formed American republic.

This too is patently false as the ACLU certainly does wish precisely the same relationship bet. Church & State enunciated by individuals like James Madison.

This should be a hint that the founding fathers were not as liberal or secular as you seem to believe.

You really gave me a laugh imagining Fry ‘Em Tony bewigged sitting in the Constitutional sessions or on the bench next to John Marshall. I can’t think of a single idea or value that the Founding Fathers would share w. Big Tony. Would George Washington, Thomas Jefferson or James Madison approve of state murder of the insane or children? Preposterous.

this is a part of the Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_holidays#Hanukkah_.E2.80.93_Festival_of_Lights

“With the commercialization of Christmas in the twentieth century as a time for exchanging gifts, adding to its position as the biggest holiday in the Western world, as well as the establishment of the modern state of Israel, Hanukkah began to increasingly serve both as a celebration of Israel’s struggle for survival and as a December family gift-giving holiday which could function as a Jewish alternative to Christmas. However, there is a long tradition of Hanukkah as an especially joyous holiday for children.”

From the Christian child’s point of view the joy of Christmas would be the presents, and yes they are usually beneath the Christmas tree, rarely you will find the “Nativity scene” in a private home, but if so its somewhere beneath the tree too.

What would be the joy of Hanukkah from a Jewish child’s perspective?

And sorry for the many spelling errors in the above comment. AND please, no harm meant!

While I understand you feel insulted by the statement, and the inquisitive drive behind your question above, my impression is you somehow find the custom “insulting” although you use different words: stifling, annoying, hegemoneous. Exclusive?

“I find the Christian hegemony exerted on American public life at Christmas time to be stifling. The sheer ignorance which so many display when they wish you a “Merry Christmas” is annoying at best. Why must the soundtrack of our lives in the holiday season be endless Christmas carols reminding us that while the historical events surrounding the holiday involved Jews, we’re certainly neither included nor wanted today.”

Partly I can understand. Christmas is a very exclusive matter. I hated it during my student days, every place closed down, so if you did not go home to see your family it usually was a very lonely affair. And I hated the constant Christmas soundtrack and family program on TV, or even more the huge commerce surrounding it.

But the tree is clearly not Christian symbol, it is simply a fashion that developed rather late. Its more related to the economical side of Christmas than to religion. That’s why I am really puzzled about the whole discussion.

Concerning the “Merry Christmas”, yes that I can understand. I never use Merry Christmas but Happy Holidays. The problem your fellow citizen might have is: They might not know the appropriate expression in your religion or even less what to say before or during the seven day period. What would it feel like to you, if somebody wished you a “Happy Hanukka” the wrong way at the wrong time? So isn’t this much more a problem of education and much less representation? I still feel by choosing the Christmas tree you are fighting windmills. For me they are simply trees with candles and decorations. Why can’t they represent the Feast of light too? They certainly do not represent the religious Christian Christmas.

Borderline antisemite: Again: while I can understand, you feel insulted by the statement that if you do not like the hegemony of Christmas customs you should move to Israel, I also recognize it as the standard, it seem to be:

When my generation over here in Germany had problems with postwar Germany’s handling of Nazi crimes or party members we were often considered communists, that was the default assumption. And the standard term was: “If you do not like it over here, you can go to the East.” So it seems to be a standard in how people treat each other, when they have a problem to listen to the Other’s point of view.

But if it concerns Jewish citizen it is anti-Semitic? What then is it when it concerns everybody else? The way the world works?

Your justification for this, that the United States and Israel where founded different, is unconvincing

“Unconvincing” to whom?? To you? Perhaps. But certainly not unconvincing to the millions of Jews in Israel and the millions more living in the Diaspora. The fact that Israel and the U.S. are in their very founding and very nature “different” is not something that convinces or doesn’t convince. It is quite simply a fact. You may not like this fact. But it is one nonetheless.

I may find the American dispossession of Native Americans morally repugnant, but it is part of our heritage as a nation. The same holds true for Israel. There are moral issues in the creation of nations that must be struggled with but they can never be undone, nor should they be. These are facts. They happened. You don’t undo the facts by changing the nature of the nation–returning all of it to the Native Americans from whom we stole it. But somehow you try to come to terms with it & do justice within the framework of said nation.

the founding fathers where nowhere near as hostile to Christianity nor the Christian majority as you are.

You mischaracterize my attitude entirely. If Christians are tolerant and respectful of my religion I am entirely respectful of theirs. If they are not, I have nothing but scorn for them. I ask for reciprocity. If I receive it, I return it.

You do not have to have a doctorate in American history to know that the founding fathers did not think like the ACLU.

Your statement indicates you certainly do not have a PhD in American history. The ACLU and its founding principles are deeply embedded precisely in those notions of the Founding Fathers which you claim they would not recognize. If the Founding Fathers could come back to us now they would feel entirely comfortable with the ACLU. Much less so with evangelical Christians.

Do you really think that the founding fathers would be up in arms over the Christmas holiday to the same extent as you are?

Actually, many of those Founding Fathers would be deeply uncomfortable with the Christmas debate as posed by Fox News. They would be deeply uncomfortable with an in your face public display of Christmas. Religion for these individuals was meant to be an entirely private & personal experience. Not at all a public one.

And I certainly believe that if they could ever embrace the idea of a public Christmas (unlikely as that is), they would certainly expect that this same public arena should embrace a public Hanukah as well.

you can only defend the dominance of the Jewish majority in Israel

An entirely inaccurate characterization of my position & you know it.

the Zionist founders of Israel where less enlightened, less liberal, and less inclusive than the founding fathers of the United States.

The founders of Zionism were trying to solve an entirely different problem than were the founders of the U.S. Of course, in trying to resolve their particular problem Zionists chose a different solution than the one proposed by our Founding Fathers. You are the one making the value judgments about one solution being better or worse than another. Not I.

This is hardly a reason to be pro-Israeli

There are millions of people throughout the world who see these things differently than you. Besides I am uncomfortable w. asking people to be ‘pro-Israeli’ since it might imply being anti-Palestinian. Rather, I’d ask that people reflect an openness to the national rights of both peoples. And there are many tens, if not hundreds of millions of people in the world who do feel this way. Unfortunately, you appear not to be among them. But I don’t think this is a tragedy fr. which Israel can never recover.