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Wow, that’s a bit too devious & conspiratorial for even me to follow. Besides, your IP & Anon’s are different so I don’t think you’re one & the same. At least I hope not.
But you’re absolutely right that Anon’s comment does prove my point about how vicious we progressives can be to ea. other. Can we make a credible claim to deserve to govern when we have such hate lurking in our midst?
To the blog owner:
I’m a conservative, and I have participated on conservative blogs and discussion boards. The kind of behavior you describe sometimes takes place among conservatives too.
I’ve been on conservative sites/blogs where some conservatives are saying very rude or hateful things about a person (usually liberal), and I’ve stepped in and asked them to stop.
Some of my fellow conservatives make fun of the Corrie girl and have nick-named her “St. Pancake,” as she was run over by a bulldozer at some protest a couple of years ago.
I believe that sort of behavior is wrong, and I’ve mentioned it to them. I don’t agree with Corrie’s political views, but to pick on a dead girl is in poor taste.
On the other hand, a liberal woman posting to one site said she was shocked to see other liberals on a liberal blog making fun of Ronald Regan’s Alzheimers disease as well as his death.
Both sides engage in this sort of disgusting behavior, unfortunately.
Anyway, for trying to get fellow conservatives to act in a more polite, upstanding manner, I get flamed by them.
One example:
A liberal woman at a conservative board told the moderators (who are conservatives) that one or two conservative posters in another forum there were genuinely scaring her because they were making threats against her.
I followed that thread for awhile to see what the moderators would do.
I was appalled that the moderators there didn’t take this liberal woman seriously. Some posters in that thread even made fun of the woman for being scared and asking for help.
The moderators acted as if they did not care. I was relatively new to the board, but I felt the need to speak up.
The attitude from the mods seemed to be that if it’s a liberal being harassed, ‘so what, who cares?’ I got the distinct impression if the roles were reversed (liberals picking on a conservative) that the moderators would’ve been all over it.
I piped in, noted that I’m a conservative, and I said if her accusations were true, the moderators should step in and put a halt to it.
I politely explained that conservative moderators shouldn’t selectively enforce board rules (which had policies against threats and harassment), i.e., choose to ignore them if it was a liberal being picked on.
I was immediately flamed by some of the conservatives there, one of whom said he wanted to “shove me in front of a bus.”
I would never dream of telling anyone in person, over the web, or where ever else, that I want them to drop dead, be shoved in front of a bus, or be harmed in some other fashion. To do so is just utterly perverse.
But too many hold the attitude, “Well, they’re just words on the web, so who cares.”
Another conservative at that board – one of the mods – voiced incredulity. She was very surprised to see a conservative sticking up for a liberal. She began one of her remarks to me, “If you are for real…”
I sometimes get branded by conservatives as a troll, too.
At one conservative blog, because I do not see eye- to- eye on some topics with the majority in the threads, one or two of the guys said I must be a troll, or a liberal posing as a conservative.
It doesn’t occur to some of them that I can disagree with them on one point and still be a conservative.
I believe part of the reason this happens is because I’m a warmer and fuzzier conservative than some of them. (I’m not saying I never lose my temper and chew someone out, though.)
I’m also a Christian, and I think that is another aspect to it.
I know some of the conservatives who ripped on me are not Christians; one or two have said they’re agnostic or are atheists.
These particular types of conservatives tend to misconstrue any shows of fairness and compassion on my part as signs I may be a troll.
I guess in their view, all conservatives are supposed to be very mean to all liberals and not show any sympathy or civility to them at all.
My faith calls on me to be no respector of persons, i.e., don’t play favorites, be fair to everyone, treat all with respect, etc. – (but again, I’m not perfect; I sometimes fall short, but I do honestly try to live up to those standards).
I just get so bent out of shape by fellow conservatives who get rude with me or accuse me of being a troll, simply because I don’t agree with them 100% on some issue, or that I ask them to stop treating some liberal or other like trash.
So you’re not the only one who deals with this!
For the poster who commented,
>>As such, we [liberals] eschew ad hominem appeals to character;>Neocons and the NYT all in bed with each other bankrupting our country, in their treasonous attempt> and you’re worried about the little gnat Dkos.
Pa-the-tic! do not want to understand you or your culture (they already despise it);
> nor do they care if you personally (or if the U.S. government) says you respect theirs, or that you want to understand them and Islam and want to understand why they hate us;
> will continue to be violent whether or not there is an Israel, as their goal is to subject the whole world under Allah;
– they want you dead, period. End of story.
Even if you are an American liberal, they want you dead. No ands, ifs, or butts. These people do not exclude American liberals from their list of enemies; you’re a target too.
Oh, someone said credibility. I have a couple of words to say about that.
(But first, I should say I found this site because you’re running my software. I doubt I would have noticed otherwise.)
I almost never read anything posted on Daily Kos, and whenever I do, I invariably find myself thoroughly critical of what’s being said, because it usually makes no sense. Kos’ post about being a “libertarian Democrat” comes to mind.
I really don’t care who said what about whom or what they’re doing to each other in their back rooms. I do care about the policies they put forth. And in the end, it’s those destructive policies which will kill us all and which must be opposed, no matter which talking head puts them forth.
DG: I’m a big boy and admittedly writing a blog about Israeli Palestinian peace has brought me my share of abuse that has been far worse than what I experienced at Dkos. But tell me how many times anyone’s told you to “blow it out your ass” or “you ain’t shit, bitch.” Takes you up short doesn’t it? If it doesn’t, then you’ve got a far thicker hide than I.
Call me hopelessly idealistic but I think that political discourse on the left can be more civil and more substantive than that.
My post above got messed up, unfortunately. Some problem with formatting, I guess. Sorry!
Most of what I was saying about where it starts getting messed up – The Anon guy was faulting the blog owner for being worried about the DKos blog.
I pointed out if we’re going to nit pick at someone else for what they’re focused on, I told Mr. Anon he should be more concerned with the fanatical Muslims who want us all dead. I don’t understand why so many liberals do not see the threat posed by fanatical Muslims.
My other points that got garbled and lost –
Contrary to Anon’s conspiracy theory scenario, conservatives do NOT like the New York Times, so no, the conservatives and the NYT are not “in bed with” each other.
Also – some guy on here said the liberals “eschew ad hominem” and behave politely.
My reply: No, they don’t. Many of them do not.
Sometimes conservatives can say rude / hateful things, true, but I usually see rude, hateful attitudes and comments coming from the left, and it tends to be on a consistent basis, too.
What makes it even more laughable to a conservative is that many a liberal likes to portray liberalism as being tolerant, loving, inclusive, sensitive, etc.
-(while it’s maintained that Republicans are big, heartless meanies who discriminate against this group and that one)-
But if you are white, a male, a Republican, a person who abides by traditional morals, and/or a Christian, you or your beliefs are not tolerated by many liberals and are even ridiculed.
The message I get from liberals is,
“We’re tolerant and respectful of everyone who thinks or acts just like we do. Everyone else can get lost.”
PlaidPolarBear: I applaud you for yr empathy & ability not to see only a political enemy but a human being. Yes, I agree that those who question established norms & ideas face great hostility instead of having their ideas seriously discussed. Both the conservative & progressive movements would be strengthened by periodically probing the values and attitudes we hold dear. Are they still relevant? Are they still productive? Are they still helpful? A movement that upholds sacred cows and refuses to budge is one that will become irrelevant relatively quickly.
As for the abuse of Rachel Corrie, I too didn’t agree with some of her views about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (though I have a feeling I agreed w. her more than you perhaps). But the inane, inhumane & flippant jokes about her do much more harm to the cause of hardline pro-Israel supporters than they imagine. I’ve written a post here on this specific subject.
There seems to be in human beings a need to feel smug & self-satisfied & self-righteous at the expense of other human beings.
Richard,
I wrote to her as well, and although I was critical of her, she gave me a four for respect, I guess.
Thad: I give you a four for respect too. Now, if you could just teach Armando how to treat people he disagrees with as you do, then the progressive world would be a better place.
And btw, he didn’t just suggest that I delete the diary entry, as you wrote in yr first comment above. He also troll rated a perfectly reasonable comment for no other earthly reason than he hates my guts. As you noted, I’m no troll. I’m as good a damn progressive as he is. It just makes my blood boil that this asshole gets to determine ideological purity at Dkos.
I just can’t believe someone who behaves like such a jackass has as much influence as he does. But he sure does Kos a disservice by such behavior.
I don’t get it. You bemoan the lack of civility on dailykos.com but you call people “jackass” here.
Really, why should anyone care what you think?
Oops,
Seems you slipped out of character for a minute there. Oh well, at least you dropped the pretense.
Maryscott is god.
“As you noted, I’m no troll. I’m as good a damn progressive as (Armando) is.”
You represent Wal-Mart too?
You can’t be a frequent visitor to dailykos.
If you were, you would have expected this reaction. I have posted their since October of 2002. In that time I have seen some of the most brilliant observations on politics I have ever read. And I have seen plenty of comments like the ones you cite.
I tend to the right of the spectrum on Kos, and was not a supporter of Dean in ’04. I agree with little from the economics writers on the site (ironically because they are too conservative). When the stuff came out about Armstrong and the SEC I wrote that the accusations bothered me a great deal.
In all of the four years I have been there I have been troll rated precisely once.
It is a common theme since I have been reading the site that there is a lack of tolerance for dissent on Kos. Take any week over the last three years and I am sure you will find a diary on that theme. It is widely thought, for example, among those who think that there was fraud in 2004 that Kos supressed discussion of the topic. This is sheer nonsense – but it is a common refrain.
The truth is that there is a ton of dissent on Kos. In fact, it is the arguments that make it fun. But beware – arguments about politics are passionate. People who knock on doors for a candidate and do it for nothing but the good of the country often react strongly when you disagree with them. They are not like the safe washington insiders who are paid to do this.
So beware. You will be called and idiot, a moran, and you parentage will be called into question. I have had all of these things hurled at me.
That’s the price of entering the public forum and engaging real people.
Maybe you should stay away.
plaidpolarbear hit on an important subtext – the fundamental misconception of conservatives. Let’s see: I have 4 kids. I give away a lot of money to humanitarian causes in the US and abroad. I have exercised my “choice” to believe that abortion takes a life. My students in the classes I teach in a famous college like me and my liberal friends like me too, because they know me. But I am a white Christian male so I know that I must be evil somehow. Howard Dean says so. And I must be angry. So the angry doctor says. The truth is that most people reading this have no idea what I am like or what the people in my church are like. Your echo chamber conveniently reinforces falsehoods and myths and damages us all.
I am not surprised by the treatment your diary received. Who knows what false myths I hold about your side. But dKos acted according to everything I understand the far left to be: an increasingly shrill and out of touch religion of intolerance, unable to sustain any challenges to its orthodoxy, unwilling to understand that those who think deeply about life and liberty can actually hold different conclusions, and more willing than it admits that ad hominems and name-calling are part and parcel of the religion of Bush-hating. The ad hominems make the echo chamber sound clearer but fundamentally fail everyone. But hey, don’t take my word for it. I am just an evil white guy with lots of kids who goes to church every week, and even though people who know me think I am pretty smart I am still stupid because, you know, I think differently than Markos and Howard. VERY DIFFERENTLY.
cmon, hypocrisy has no party affiliation, intolerance no wing, and stupidity has always been more powerful than intelligence
What is this about troll-rating at dKos? Are you telling me that only a certain select class of dKos members are permitted to rate posts? Are you kidding me? That is straight out of “Animal Farm”.
DG: I called Armando a “jackass” because he treated me and oh so many others like me w. whom he disagrees like shit. The demeaning tone and language came fr. him first I assure you. I don’t insult people who don’t insult me first. People who call me trolls w/o good reason deserve a little bit of the same shit that they shovel. Have you looked around Kos to see how he treats people he doesn’t like? He troll-rated an innocuous comment on my own diary so that it disappeared. He demanded that I delete my diary. Sorry, but “jackass” stands. He’s the thought police on that site & I detest it.
I was absolutely civil and polite in everything I wrote in that diary and the comment he troll rated. Here, I give myself a bit more liberty to use more colorful language because it’s my own site. You’re grasping at straws in criticizing my language.
Well, I’m pleased that Maryscott O’Connor cares what I think even if you don’t. And enough other folks visit this site daily who seem to care about what I have to say. So I guess they disagree with you.
perhaps. but intolerance is the orthodoxy of the New Left. ummm. at least that’s sure what it looks like from here. (of course, lefties think conservative christians are all intolerant. i mean, jimmy carter equates us with the islamist fundamentalists. unbelievably irresponsible.) DKos is institutionalizing or has institutionalized intolerance, and this diary story is only one of many examples I know of. That kind of goofiness is why many Repubs consider DKos to be one of their most effective tools for convincing the country that Dems=loons. The tragedy is this lets Repubs get by with all kinds of stuff that more intellectually honest and coherent adversaries could challenge. DKos is worthless for challenging governance. It does just fine for whipping up donations, anger, and echos. We need better. We needed better, BTW, in 2004. If you guys ran a better candidate than a crowd quisling (ad hominem, I acknowledge, based on endless data), you would have changed the debate and probably the election. DKos and JKerry can look in the mirror and see the same image of opportunity they have squandered.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/6/20/185321/663
Markos never worked for Sherrod Brown. Ever. He stopped consulting in 2004. What about that do you not understand? Why will you not correct that lie?
Oh Daveo why are still so lame-o? That wasn’t me who wrote that comment or again, can’t you read? That was another conservative commenter named Tommy. Can’t you tell people apart or is it simply too inconvenient for you to do so?
Petey: Very funny but a telling point too. Could it be that Armando reacts so defensively to my diary about disclosure & transparency in political blogging because he’s hittin’ the gravy train along w. the rest of ‘em??
If you read this could you provide me a link to something that talks about his involvement w. Wal-Mart?
richard, even though i wasn’t part of the mob on your diary, i’ll give you my apology on behalf of the community. i second what thad said, i think there has been a lot of hot air about markos’s “blogola” scandal that’s a whole lot of nothing to most people, and people were sick of them. unfortunately you just walked into it. sort of like walking into a room when an argument that has been raging for hours is almost over, and asking the same question again.
but that doesn’t excuse the reception you got. especially from armando, who should be setting a better example.
seems like the whole koslandia has gotten a bit too big for its britches, and its hard to keep it from degenerating into a torches-and-pitchforks mob sometimes. i’m trying to figure out how to get that energy off the nets and out in streets and neighborhoods between now and november, and the torrent of info spooled out into people’s living rooms.
BTW, if this were my blog, i would ban someone like anon. for whatever reason there’s an effort afoot to paint the left as anti-semitic, even though the farthest left people i know are jewish. you never meet these people in real life, the ones who spout the divided-loyalties canard (at least not on the left). but for some reason they turn up everywhere on the net these days. my theory is that these posts show up so that others can point to them and say, “see?” caveat lector.
Feels a bit like you cherry-picked the diary comments. Some on Kos do come across as thinking they’re a little too special. But there are always gonna be a couple boneheads in any crowd and there were plenty of thoughtful, reasonable comments. Some of ‘em agreed with your diary and some of ‘em didn’t. As for the broader issue about what is and isn’t appropriate relative to Kos, the site, its visitors it may be part of the natural evolution of these sorts of things–that they become too much about themselves.
eric: There is a diff. bet. PlaidPolarBear’s attitude toward the left & yours. He tries to assume the basic humanity of someone he disagrees with & you see yourself as the victim of the left (which doesn’t presume that our side has humanity when it comes to how we see you).
Saying that Howard Dean sees you as “evil” is using him as a convenient whipping boy to reinforce all yr worst fears & hatred of the left. Besides where precisely did he say you are ‘evil?’ It’s easy to throw around charges, but let’s back them up or not level them.
I don’t know you & don’t know yr political views. There are people on the right whose views of abortion I disagree with–but as long as they don’t see me as anti-Chrisitian or a deep sinner or “evil” then I’m willing to see them as human as well.
I think you’re confusing things a bit. This entire incident revolves around not how Daily Kos treats the conservative right, but how it treats supposedly unorthodox thinkers within its own political camp.
And besides, my friend, if you’re looking for “intolerance,” “inability to sustain challenges to orthodoxy,” and an unwillingness “to understand that those who think deeply about life & liberty can actually hold diff. conclusions,” then all you have to do is visit any garden variety right-wing blog or listen to your own White House’s statements. Not much tolerance of progressive views there I’m afraid. There’s plenty to go around regarding that coming from the right side of the blogosphere. Before you call the kettle black why don’t you look at yr. own pot.
In short, there is intemperance, vitriol & hatred on both sides of the political fence. I’m guilty of it myself at times. These issues mean a great deal to all of us so we sometimes get hot-headed about it. While I’m not wild about extreme rhetoric regarding our political opponents, I think using such rhetoric on one’s supposed allies is even worse than flinging against one’s opponents which is why I wrote this post.
I’m not out here to police the rhetoric that left uses against right or vice versa. That’s far too big a subject matter to take on. But generally, if you oppose my views but do so respectfully I’ll try to grant you the same level of respect in discussing my disagreements with you.
Zeke: Thanks so very much for yr. sympathy for what happened. Hearing this fr. you revives my faith that DKos can be a place for reasonable discussion even if there are a few rotten apples in the barrel. I think you’re precisely right about how this happened. People just assumed I was a Mickey Kaus clone (as a commenter here tried to claim) trying to weasel my way into the DKos confines to throw bombs, which is certainly not the case.
You are entirely right that the progressive movement is widely populated by Jews (something I’m proud of–even though we do have our share of neocons too I’m afraid). But I’m also afraid to tell you that the dual loyalty anti-Semitic canard is alive and well on the left–specifically in the forum of Democrats.com. You can read about it in this post I wrote. And the anti-Semitic rhetoric came fr. the forum moderator believe it or not. I’ still trying to get an e mail address for Bob Fertik so I can discuss this w. him but there is none listed on his site unfortunately. But hopefully these incidents are aberrant & don’t represent a trend though they are troubling when you experience them fr. a supposed fellow progressive.
As to why I don’t ban such comments fr. slime like Anon–I think they’re instructive to my readers to show them that such hatred still does exist & that we have more work to do on behalf of tolerance & trust.
Bob: The comments to my diary came in 2 waves. The first wave (which ended at comment 29) was written immediately after I first published it & those comments were almost uniformly negative to the point of nasty. You are right in that there are 1 or 2 that disagreed respectfully (Elwood Dowd was one in particular).
The more sympathetic comments only started a week after the diary was published when Maryscott wrote her post & brought renewed scrutiny to my diary. I wrote this post before Maryscott wrote hers defending me & so the comments I ‘cherry-picked’ were representative of the general tone of the comments published at the diary at that time.
Peaches: Calling what I wrote a “lie” rather than a “mistake” is a perfect example of the the DKos tone of intolerance and willingness to believe the worst of even one’s erstwhile ally. Markos never worked for Sherrod Brown. Fine. But he did work for Howard Dean. I’m the enemy because the words “Sherrod Brown” appeared in my diary instead of “Howard Dean?” C’mon.
And you know what? The troll rated comment (banished thanks to Armando & several others of his merry crew) I wrote asked members to provide precisely the link which you provided. And even when my comment still appeared at my diary the only response one member could muster was: “You’ve heard of Google haven’t you?” That’s precisely the type of smarmy reply that too many Kos members are capable of. Instead of answering a request for information with a real reply you get snark. Maybe if someone had provided the link you did then it would’ve been a whole lot less confrontational & nasty experience all around. And btw, while writing my DKos diary I DID a site search of DKos for precisely the type of entry you quoted above & didn’t find that one. So sue me.
But let’s go back to consulting for Howard Dean. Armando says he disclosed the relationship at the site. Another commenter asked where & how he disclosed this information & was treated again with snark. I think it’s a legitimate question. I have 1,300 posts here at this site. If in one of them I disclose I’m consulting for a candidate I don’t consider that sufficient disclosure. I think every time I say anything positive about my candidate I should add such a disclosure until I stop working for him or her.
And in the passage you quote above Kos notes that he is accepting advertising, by which I assume he also includes political advertising. Is he disclosing who his advertisers are & how much they’re paying him? You may not find that material but given the income he can make from such advertising I think it’s important that he reveal it. Besides, if he doesn’t reveal it his enemies will find out (& despite yr. mistrust of my motives, I am NOT one of them) & do it form him. Isn’t it better for our side that he pre-empts them & does it himself?
eric: C’mon. And intolerance isn’t bred in the bone of the Christian convservative movement? Have you read anything at all by Michelle Malkin, James Dobson, Pat Robertson, David Horowitz, Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh lately??
I could argue w. you about this forever since as a Jew I know a great deal about the intolerant views of the Christian right. But let’s save that for another day. Suffice to say that the right is as intolerant, if not more so, than the left. So as not to offend you, why don’t we just leave it that the 2 sides are equally intolerant?
Of course there is intolerance on the left. It runs like a river right through our society so we’re all going to have it running in our veins. But do we control it? Do we call our allies out when they use it? Do we renounce it as much as possible in our own rhetoric? That’s the issue that’s important to me.
Is this some kind of rhetorical shorthand you guys use? I have no idea what “crowd quisling” means but it sounds absolutely horrid. And why would you call John Kerry this in the middle of a comment in which you criicize the left for its “intolerance?” Brother, you just lost any sympathy I might’ve had for your position.
It’s donnybrooks like these why I am and will remain a Republican. Democrats will never regain their majority as long as they are too busy biting each others’ ankles. Jeb Bush in 2008!
I had a mirror experience of yours and, on top of that, had many of my comments deleted. None of which merited deletion, by the way. (And I’m not just saying that… I’ve heard much, much worse come from people on that blog..)
I wrote my “Goodbye Cruel World” diary and haven’t returned. Good riddance to DailyKos and good for you.