This isn’t a far-fetched premise, this has happened numerous times.

My interaction with Palestinians has been primarily with Palestinian academics and relatively prominent and well-educated members of the Palestinian “elite” (read: old-line families like Bargoutis and Nashashibis), as well as many Christian Palestinians. I’m not sure how that makes my points more or less valid. Nobody is debating that the Palestinians have it tough. I am debating that it need not be like this.

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Apartheid (this is a cut and paste from a post of mine at a different site, I don’t have the time to rewrite):

Finally, the key issue being apartheid or lack thereof in Israel, I don’t think that making this claim defines a person as an antisemite. It is simply a mistaken view that has been promulgated by people who have an interest in linking a grievous system in SA to one that isn’t in Israel. But why don’t I help by pointing you to your friend Mobius who gives us an article from a South African Jew living in Israel who fought against apartheid when he was still living in SA.

http://www.jewschool.com/israpartheid.htm

Oh, and all those Arabs living in Israel who are about to vote for their representatives of choice in the Knesset (Israel’s parliament), as well as all those Arabs who live in the territories and have just voted in Hamas as their new government would probably also like to remind you that in apartheid SA, blacks were not allowed to vote at all.

They may also want to remind you that they are free to marry whomever they like, including Jews, unlike in SA where blacks couldn’t even share the beach with whites, much less marry them. Of course, Arabs can also ride the same bus and sit next to Jews in Israel, as we well know from some very explosive suicide bombers who did just that, but would have had a challenging time doing so in SA. The list goes on, but I think the point is made. I know it’s easy to use shorthand to describe a situation, and it’s helpful to the Palestinians to paint their cause as this, um, black and white conflict where they suffer as did the blacks and coloreds in SA, but it’s just not so.

Why not paint it for what it is: a war over land that two people seek as their own. One side is the weaker and one is the stronger, but at the same time, the stronger side is under constant threat of destruction and war, and happens to be far weaker than its enemies when they are looked at collectively.
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Checkpoints: you can call them political tools, but the fact is that many checkpoints are mobile, not static. If your comment was right about them being used for breakup of contiguity, this would not be the case. Checkpoints make Palestinian lives much harder, but they also protect Israeli lives. They are there for security and have been effective in the past. Just the other day, I provided you with a link to a boy who had been captured at a checkpoint carrying a bomb. If you can find another way to protect Israelis, let me know. I have one, by the way, it’s called the Security Fence.

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Landgrabs: Why is it okay for you to claim that in these DISPUTED territories, only the Israelis may not build? We’ve discussed 242 and the issue of the territories being in dispute is clear enough that the PA tried in ‘99 to establish a position that would make them “occupied.” But that’s minutae that makes your eyes glaze over. The question is, why is it okay for the Palestinians to build their villages to create facts on the ground under the assumption that they will not have to negotiate and that they have every right to do so while Israel has no right to do so? Why is it that Palestinians can do whatever they like and whatever it is - building houses, launching attacks, smuggling weapons, rejecting Israel as a Jewish state, launching rockets, teaching from textbooks that perpetuate the conflict, inciting against Israel and Israelis at the leadership and imam level, inciting against Israel AND Jews internationally and in diplomatic circles, nullifying Jewish connection to the Land of Israel, etc., etc. - you will defend them in one way or another?

As for dusty hovels, you might want to revisit the territories some time soon. There are numerous homes that are anything but dusty hovels. Also, to remind you, the Palestinian standard of living used to be higher before their terrorist groups made it impossible for Israel to trust letting through any Palestinians. Also, Israel is not to blame for the high birth rate. As I recall, it was Arafat who told his people that the womb could be another Palestinian weapon against Israel. However, it’s interesting to see that you believe larger families deserve larger homes since that has been the Israeli claim with respect to growing settlements. I thought you were opposed to Jewish settlements in the territories.

Palestinian poverty surely exists, but what does that have to do with anything, or does Egypt not have rampant poverty? Just as the Palestinians seek to secure access to Jerusalem and make it their own, the Israelis want to secure Jerusalem for themselves so if you wish to condemn one, you should condemn the other.

But the most interesting point you make is that you think Palestinians are not fleeing into Israel proper before the fence goes up completely. Not only is there a flood in Jerusalem of these people, but in case you had any doubts, simply read up on the reaction of Arab Israelis whenever somebody proposes that they become attached to the Palestinian state when it comes about. They refuse mightily regardless of who proposes it. If it’s somebody on the Left, they object on the grounds of citizenship rights, and if it’s somebody on the Right, they complain that it’s racism.

Anyway:

http://www.jewishreview.org/Archives/Article.php?Article=2003-12-01-1301

and just in case a Jewish publication doesn’t do it for you:

http://www.palestinecampaign.org/archives.asp?xid=1507

Hmmm…Palestinians clamoring to end up on the Israeli side of the fence…

I was referring to people out there who may not be aware of how false these terms are.

NOT false & you provide no support for the argument they are.

You use this shorthand to manipulate those who don’t know enough to assess whether there is validity to the accusations or not.

Crap. My readers are far more intelligent that you give them credit for. And I’d thank you for not assuming they are dolts about this subject. You insult them & only betray your own condescension in comments like this.

using terms like bantustans is intended to evoke memories of South African apartheid and is pure manipulation.

More crap. If the shoe fits wear it. And it fits fairly well in this circumstance I’d say.

As for my interaction with Israel, Israelis, Palestinians, the territories, etc., I’m afraid you’ll be disappointed to know that I have had numerous interactions with all. I haven’t visited in a couple of years so you can make the claim that I haven’t been recently, but I have lots of friends there, including some of the far Left and some in academia

That is only a partial answer to my question. I asked how well you knew Palestinians or Palestinian life. I didn’t ask how well you knew Israel or Israelis since that is not relevant to my question or your arguments (which make claims about Palestinian life about which you know very little). You reply “I’ve had numerous interactions with all.” What is an “interaction?” It can meet slipped change to the barista or it can mean living with a Palestinian family for six months in their village. Which is it? And you never answered my question about the nature of your “interaction” with Palestinians. You say “I have lots of friends there” but appear to allude to Israelis (again a question I’m not asking). I’d like to know about your Palestinians friends (if you have any).

my information comes from many sources, although I do include the IDF spokesperson as one and I have great faith in what they announce. So should you.

I bet you do hold a valued spot in your heart for IDF spokespeople since they reflect your world view so well. I’d thank you for not telling me what I should think about such flacks. Think what you want about them & leave my own freedom of thought to myself thank you.

it’s clear I’m right.

And if you close your eyes really tight, concentrate really hard, & repeat it 30 times backwards, it just might become true. But I doubt it.

there is land expropriation by Palestinians like in the two villages that are forcing Israel to create the E-1 project because they keep expanding into each other.

This is really one of yr all time whoppers & I’d like to put flashing lights around it so all my readers can read it. Get this everyone, the PALESTINIANS are at fault for Israel’s land grabs because if they would just mind their manners, continue living in their dusty hovels originally meant to house 4 family members for those which now have 8 or 10, then Israel wouldn’t have to steal the land for its biggest new settlement. That’s rich. Thanks for entertaining me so with such vivid fantasy. You oughta take this show on the road. Maybe CAMERA would jet set your around the country talking to impressionable young people on campuses & telling them how the Occupation is all the Palestinians fault.

the large number of Palestinians who have moved into the Western part of the fence in Jerusalem so that they don’t - heaven forbid - not end up under Israeli jurisdiction.

More richness. The Palestinians actually want to live under Israeli law and are fleeing to what will supposedly become Israel proper in order to do so??? Are you sure you’ve not taken some sort of medication that induces delusions?

This is a war over land, Richard, and both sides are fighting it and doing so aggressively

More utter stupidity. It IS a war over land. A war in which Israel has almost all the weapons and the Palestinians fight with the equivalent of a slingshot. Israel not only has the literal weapons, it has powerful administrative tools which grab the land and flip it for Israeli use. To think that the Palestinians are equal adversaries in this war is simply another one of your preposterous, deluded statements. This again shows how woefully little you know what it’s like to live ON THE GROUND in the Occupied Territories.

As for checkpoints and roadblocks, you’ll forgive me but going from checkpoints and roadblocks to apartheid and bantustans is absurd.

More delusions. Checkpoints and roadblocks are critical tools in destroying the contiguity between Palestinian areas. If you can’t travel, can’t trade, can’t get to hospital, can’t get to school, and can’t get to your farmland, you’re in effect living in a bantustan. If one was being VERY charitable to Israel one might argue that the bantustan effect is not intentional because Israel is only using checkpoints for security purposes. But I’m of the opinion that these obstacle to human intercourse are intentional disruptions in Palestinian life. But even if they’re not they still create a bantustan and are reprehensible.

the Israelis opened the Karni Crossing for Gaza and within less than an hour they had to re-close it because intelligence notified them that there was a terror warning. They had re-opened it to allow food and humanitarian aid, but had to close it because some of these groups had decided that they would use the opportunity to attack.

Spoken like the red-blooded true believer that you are. How do you know whether the reason Israel closed the crossing was the one they stated? What evidence have they provided to substantiate this claim? None that I know.

They only opened that crossing after some very hard lobbying by Condi Rice. Closing it after one hr. and saying it’s due to a terror warning allows them to mollify Rice by saying we tried and also allows them to close it once again since they never wanted it opened to begin with. After all, these are the same Israelis who constantly announce they’ve reclosed the borders due to terror threats WHEN THEY WERE NEVER OPEN TO BEGIN WITH. As the new Chuck Brodsky song (about Pres. Bush but apt in this case as well) says: “Liar, liar pants on fire.”

You say I’m cynical. I say you’re gullible beyond belief.

As for your readers, I have no idea who they might be and chances are you only know some. I’m sure many have a good handle on the conflict and many do not. Either way, using terms like bantustans is intended to evoke memories of South African apartheid and is pure manipulation.

As for my interaction with Israel, Israelis, Palestinians, the territories, etc., I’m afraid you’ll be disappointed to know that I have had numerous interactions with all. I haven’t visited in a couple of years so you can make the claim that I haven’t been recently, but I have lots of friends there, including some of the far Left and some in academia with political science and modern history as their fields of scholarship. I’m afraid my information comes from many sources, although I do include the IDF spokesperson as one and I have great faith in what they announce. So should you.

As for insulting people, I don’t recall calling anybody a racist, do you? I did note, however, that Mr. Schamess has still not addressed the simple question of how the Palestinian groups we’re discussing perceive Israelis in their violence and how that violence ties them all into one group. It’s okay, Andrew, you don’t really have a response because it’s clear I’m right.

“what it’s like to be a Palestinian today? What do you know about living with roadblocks, impeded travel, checkpoints, land expropriation, settlement expansion that encroaches on local villages,”

Well yeah, and also there is land expropriation by Palestinians like in the two villages that are forcing Israel to create the E-1 project because they keep expanding into each other. Or, for example, the large number of Palestinians who have moved into the Western part of the fence in Jerusalem so that they don’t - heaven forbid - not end up under Israeli jurisdiction. Or, for example, all the Palestinian villages that planted young olive trees aggressively right up to the borders of certain settlements because the Israel Supreme Court ruled that settlements may not grow by taking over Palestinian land that is being used for any purpose (yes, I am aware that some settlements have violated this rule). This is a war over land, Richard, and both sides are fighting it and doing so aggressively. As for checkpoints and roadblocks, you’ll forgive me but going from checkpoints and roadblocks to apartheid and bantustans is absurd. And again, I remind you for the umpteenth time, Israel was out of many of these areas and the Palestinians forced them to return with an orgy of attacks in 2001 and 2002. Israel could be out of there without the violence. Israel could be out of there if every time they let up some Palestinians wouldn’t try to come through and launch an attack on Israelis. Yesterday the Israelis opened the Karni Crossing for Gaza and within less than an hour they had to re-close it because intelligence notified them that there was a terror warning. They had re-opened it to allow food and humanitarian aid, but had to close it because some of these groups had decided that they would use the opportunity to attack. Is that racism? Apartheid? Nope, that is simple self-preservation in a time of war. Who should the average Palestinian blame for this? How about blaming the groups that wanted to launch the attack?

It looks like Mr. Middle has run out of arguments, and is resorting to unsupported assertions, accusations and insults.

No, use of the term racism, like the use of the term bantustans, apartheid, etc., etc., is just bullshit

One man’s bullshit is another man’s gold (i.e. compost). I find these terms quite useful in describing living conditions for Palestinians & neither Andrew nor I are “less than knowledgeable observers.”

Tell me, have you ever lived on the W. Bank (not in a settlement). Have you ever spent any time in a Palestinian town or village? Have you ever spent any time talking to a Palestinian living in the W. Bank? Gee, I’m guessing the answer would be no to all three. So how do you know what it’s like to be a Palestinian today? What do you know about living with roadblocks, impeded travel, checkpoints, land expropriation, settlement expansion that encroaches on local villages, etc. What gives you the right to call terms like ‘apartheid’ and ‘bantustan’ propaganda when you don’t know the first thing about real life in the Territories (except insofar as IDF spokespeople describe it for you).

Of course those terms make you feel uncomfortable because in your world Israel is nothing like apartheid S. Africa. Israel has only good and noble intentions. Israel is the “light unto the nations,” right?

I was just making sure that the ignorant reader understood clearly that just because somebody accused another of racism, doesn’t make it so

First Andrew and I are “less than knowledgeable observers” and now my readers are “ignorant.” Phew, Middle, you sure know how to make friends and influence people, don’t you?! And what do you think you are–a tutor for my “ignorant readers” trying to prevent their being indoctrinated with anti-Israel propaganda? I bet that is why you hang out here. If so, it’s deeply insulting both to me and my ignorant readers.

Oh, and Andrew, I was just making sure that the ignorant reader understood clearly that just because somebody accused another of racism, doesn’t make it so.

Your comments about Israel indiscriminately dropping bombs are just as false as your assertion of racism. So is the assertion that somehow these terror groups are different when what it boils down to is that whether they are Marxists or Muslim Brotherhood, they go into crowded areas full of as many Jews as they can find and try to kill and maim as many as they can. Go ahead and dispute that point instead of all your dancing around the obvious and equivocation by trying to blame Israel for its defense of its citizens. Remember, Israel was out of Areas A. Completely out.

The fact that some of what Israeli leaders say & do might not be intentionally racist makes it no less so, especially since the inherent racism has been pointed out to them by many sources including their own citizens.

And such racism does not argue against Palestinian militants being racists too in the ways The Middle mentioned. Perhaps racism is too strong a word for this particular discussion. But I think indiscriminate violence & ideological slurs, whether perpetrated by one side or the other, do the most damage to hopes for a solution of the conflict.

Had you forgotten that the Israelis also drop bombs on apartments, cars, neighborhoods and residential streets in the teritory they occupy? And that they have killed four times as many Palestinians as the Palestinians have killed Israelis?

In any case, you are confused. You are not describing discrimination, but indiscriminate violence.

Force - whether it takes the form of suicide bombings, airplane bombings, missiles or territorial seizure - does not solve conflicts. It can influence the terms of the debate, giving one or the other side an advantage - but, at a terrible cost.

There are huge differences between Palestinian factions, just as there are between Israeli factions. They have different philosophies, histories, goals and strategies. To understand this is critical in pursuing a political solution to the conflict. If we refuse to analyze what would motivate Hamas to make peace - what constraints and motives operate on the movement, the extent and conditions under which Hamas could be trusted - and instead dismiss them generically and naively as implacable terrorists, we forclose the option of a political solution. It often seems to me that this is exactly what Israel is trying to do, as it feels it has the upper hand and nothing to gain from negotiations.

The bleak alternative to a political solution was summarized quite well by Jeff Halper:

Israel believes it can beat the Palestinians so it takes a win-lose approach. “We can beat them. We can create a Bantustan in a way that South Africa couldn’t, because the credibility that Zionism has which apartheid never had, because of unequivocal American support, and because we’re able to demonize and isolate the Palestinians. We can get away with it and in the end we’ll wear down the Palestinians,” and we see this every day, “to the point where they’ll cry ‘uncle.’”

The Palestinians, I think strengthened in that sense by Hamas, look at it in a very different way. They say, “You know what? Do whatever you want to do.” In a sense, I think their strategy is one of attrition. In other words, “We don’t have the power to fight you but we can take the punches. We can hunker down. We can survive, and in the end we do have the power,” because the Palestinians are the gatekeepers.

Thank you for your kind concern about my views of other people and groups. Since we’re making generalizations I guess I should chime in. I think, for example, that all people who view somebody as racist because he argues that terror groups and their attacks on civilians with respect to their victims resemble each other, are profoundly stupid.

Now, now, don’t get all upset. I’m sure you weren’t calling me a racist for bunching terror groups that target civilians. Right, I mean you’d have to be pretty stupid to connect those dots, and you don’t strike me as stupid.

Of course, the irony of your comment should not go unmentioned. Dear Andrew, if you think that racism is defined by the inability to distinguish between groups such as, for example, Labor or Likud, then guess who meets your categorizations? That’s right, the people who send people out to bomb the shit out of any Israeli that walks, dines, gets on buses, studies at the university or is going home from the Western Wall be they Laborites, Likudniks or even Meretzniks. Care to guess who that might be (careful now, you don’t want to get into a racist mode of thinking here)?