You are currently browsing comments. If you would like to return to the full story, you can read the full entry here: “Jyllands-Posten’s Muhammed Cartoons”.
Tags: free-speech, Islam, muhammed-cartoons, muslim, press freedom
You are currently browsing comments. If you would like to return to the full story, you can read the full entry here: “Jyllands-Posten’s Muhammed Cartoons”.
Tags: free-speech, Islam, muhammed-cartoons, muslim, press freedom
Danny Bee: I was with you up till the “civilized” part. I’m totally opposed to any use of force or intimidation to express one’s views whether it be regarding religion or politics. That includes the tremendous overreaction on the part of some Muslims.
But I’m also opposed to creating a unfounded distinctions between the “civilized” and “uncivilized” world. Many right-wing Jews paint Arabs or Muslims as “uncivilized.” It’s handy way to demean your opponent using code words w/o engaging their ideas. People one doesn’t like or doesn’t understand are labelled “uncivilized” all too quickly sometimes.
Richard,
I was using the word in a joking way, sorry for that, apologies, and I agree with you. It’s a loaded word and I take it back. You are right. RE:
“……I’m also opposed to creating a unfounded distinctions between the “civilized” and “uncivilized” world. Many right-wing Jews paint Arabs or Muslims as “uncivilized.” It’s handy way to demean your opponent using code words w/o engaging their ideas. People one doesn’t like or doesn’t understand are labelled “uncivilized” all too quickly sometimes. ”
Agree.
NEWS LOOP:
Danish cartoonists now fear for their lives
From Anthony Browne in Brussels
TWELVE Danish cartoonists whose pictures sparked such outcry have gone into hiding under round-the-clock protection, fearing for their lives.
The cartoonists, many of whom had reservations about the pictures, have been shocked by how the affair has escalated into a global “clash of civilisations”. They have since tried, unsuccessfully, to stop them being reprinted.
A spokesman for the cartoonists said: “They are in hiding around Denmark. Some of them are really, really scared. They don’t want to see the pictures reprinted all over the world. We couldn’t stop it. We tried, but we couldn’t.”
Mogens Blicher Bjerregaard, president of the Danish Union of Journalists, told The Times: “They are keeping a very low profile. They are very concerned about their safety. They feel a big responsibility on their shoulders. It’s blown up so big. It is tough for them.”
The cartoonists’ names were originally printed in the Danish paper Jyllands-Posten. Flemming Rose, the paper’s cultural editor, invited 25 newspaper cartoonists to draw a picture of Muhammad “how they saw him”, after a children’s author complained that cartoonists would only dare illustrate a book he was writing on the life of Muhammad if they could be anonymous. Twelve cartoonists responded, had their pictures printed in September, and were paid 800 Danish krone (£73) each.
In an interview with a Swedish newspaper this week, some of the cartoonists expressed their doubts about the entire episode. “It felt a little like a lose-lose situation. If I said no, I was a coward who contributes to self-censorship. If I said yes, I became an irresponsible hate monger against Islam,” one of the cartoonists said.
Another said: “I was actually angry when I first received the letter [from Jyllands-Posten]. I thought it was a really bad idea. At first I didn’t want to participate, but then I talked it over with some friends from the Middle East, and they thought I should do it.”
The cartoonists come from a variety of different political backgrounds, which is reflected in their work. While some of the pictures satirise Muhammad, others attack populist right-wing politicians and even Jyllands-Posten itself, which is rightwing.
Having failed to stop the cartoons being reprinted across Europe, the cartoonists have now decided to use all the money raised from the sales of the pictures to set up a foundation which will award an annual international prize for press freedom.
Is there a middle ground? ASKS TIME magazine, which DID NOT print the cartoons in this week’s issue:
QUOTE UNQUOTE: It’s worth noting that the vast majority of Western news outlets (including TIME) have chosen not to republish the cartoons, out of deference to Islamic sensitivities. On other occasions the U.S. media have exercised self-censorship in matters of religion; in 1992, for instance, after Sinead O’Connor outraged Catholics by ripping up a photo of the Pope on Saturday Night Live, NBC reran the show without O’Connor’s performance. To Muslims, disrespect for the Prophet is a rallying point beyond worldly politics. And so as anger plays out in Muslim hearts, the challenge for the West in the days ahead is to figure out how to contain it.
My guess is that NEWSWEEK also will not print the cartoons, not even one of them.
I am a Muslim and am extremely offended by the violent display that has erupted in parts of the Muslim world… These cartoons are offensive to Muslims, but this is not the way to deal with it. When I said so on my blog, a right-wing Bush supporter posted a comment that basically said, “Yeah! Muslims suck! Let’s post these cartoons everywhere we can, just to show ‘em!!” Um… that’s not what I meant.
You said it best in your article: The hotheads seem to run the agenda leaving progressives on the margins of the debate. I don’t think the majority of Danish Muslims advocate the violent response to these cartoons, at least judging by this BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4692318.stm
Some snippets:
Rabih Azad-Ahmad, chair of the Multicultural Association, said the row had become too confrontational.
“Now, we have to demonstrate that we are proud of being Danish and that we are supporting Danish values,” he said.
In an unexpected turn, the reaction to the attacks on Danish embassies could help promote integration in Denmark.
“I didn’t know there were so many Muslims in Denmark who are supporting Western values,” said Soren Espersen, an MP for the populist Danish People’s Party.
His comments mark a turnaround for the party, which has grown to be the country’s third largest on a political platform of nationalism and xenophobia.
They are also likely to have been welcomed by a group of Danish writers who warned two months ago that the harsh tone in the national debate about Muslims and integration was comparable to Nazi rhetoric against Jews.
(end snippet)
Regardless of the inexusable Muslim extremist response, I don’t believe the publishing of these cartoons was a test of freedom of speech, as has been claimed. More like a PR stunt by a small, right-wing Danish newspaper designed to inflame anti-immigrant feelings.
And what’s up with the publisher of the book about Islam? If this book is truly a sympathetic one, why would they want to print illustrations of Prophet Muhammad, knowing full well how disrespectful this would be to the religion itself? I just don’t buy it.
Btw, I agree with you that your display of these cartoons are for educational/discussion purposes only, and not inflammatory.
Thanks for your comment, Purvis. And I’m also glad to know that you share my criticisms of both the Danish paper and the extreme response to their dumb stunt. Good to know that people of differing religious traditions can see eye to eye on such potentially incendiary issues.
Don’t be utterly devoid of democratic commen sense. We have the right to make verbal jokes, to publish controversial books, to post offensive photos (with strict rules), and to depict cartoon characters of the issues at hand. When did it become acceptable to kow-tow to the Muslims because a cartoon is found offensive? And the response is to publish cartoons of the Holocaust?! What is everyone smoking these days? There is no comparison between the two concepts: one – a known, horrific killing of millions of people; two – the depiction of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban. I can’t see straight over this nonsense anylonger. Send me, I’ll take that 27 year old CSM’s place.
Caryn: Your problem is that you wish to paint all Muslims with the same brush when it is inappropriate to do so. Because a Muslim draws a detestable cartoon portraying Adolf Hitler in bed with Anne Frank does that mean that all Muslims are responsible?
And you’ll get nowhere claiming that the Muhammed cartoons were “inoffensive doodles” as Tim Rutten did in the L.A. Times, while the Holocaust cartoon is a truly offensive expression of hate. Both were offensive. I’m sorry but a non-Muslim doesn’t get the right to tell Muslims what they should and shouldn’t find offensive. This is the height of cultural and religious insensitivity.
I made no such comment that Muslims are all alike, nor did I state the cartoons were “inoffensive doodles.” They are indeed upsetting to many, including non-Muslims.
What I did say was that there is freedom of expression and speech (not to mention religious beliefs, movement, sexual orientation, etc.), at least in some countries. And people (whoever they are) do not get to riot because they find something offensive. Or put fatwahs out on people’s lives because they find a book offensive (Salman Rushdie). Or decapitate people to make a point.
Nor is it in good taste to “retaliate” by eliciting cartoons of a well-documented genocide. Islam/Allah is a concept, a belief. And visual depictions of Muhammed in art do exist at various museums throughout the world. The murder of millions of people in WWII is a fact. Two wrongs do not make a right.
It is an angry, disenfranchised, misogynistic and (hopefully minority) of Muslims who are creating these unhappy times. Take care when you read comments to be accurate.
Caryn: I am glad & reassured to hear that you do not blame all Muslims for the harsh overreaction to the Muhammed cartoons.
However, I assure you I read your comment carefully & was accurate in my response (except for that one point). Here’s what you wrote about the Muhammed cartoons & the Holocaust cartoons published by Muslims in response:
This is an inaccurate analysis of the issue. You have attempted to diminish the concerns of Muslims by saying the Muhammed cartoons are somehow less offensive that the Holocaust cartoons; instead of admitting that both are patently & unforgivably offensive to both Muslims & Jews.
That being said, I see little else in your comment to disagree with. We both find the Muhammed cartoons “upsetting” (well, I’d go farther than you on that). We both repudiate violence as a legitimate response to religious bigotry. We both agree that Muslim “retaliation” against the cartoons by publishing Holocaust cartoons is also illegitimate. We both agree that a minority of Muslims have responded in inappropriate ways.
Isn’t “Thou shalt have no graven images before me.” one of the 10 cornerstones of Jewdism, Christianity AND Islam? Aren’t their people in this country outraged that this can’t be displayed publically?? One would hate to bring up why Jesus was such an insult to the leaders of his own religion in his time. “He says he’s what!?” (and did he ever really say he was THE prophet??)
Could it be that we are a bit embarrassed that our western religions don’t place the same weight in the orginal commandments … unless it’s an issue of just displaying them. This is NOT necessarily about Mohammed! We could get a lot farther in bringing peace by trying to understand one another instead of antagonizing cultures or countries. I think the term is.. “diplomacy”. Simple concepts like “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” “Love your neighbor..” The idea of making fun of this outrage is a travisty. We should have asked some serious questions after 9/11, but no one wanted to figure out what was driving the other side. “An eye for an eye” became the only important concept. Not the best core value to draw from any of the world’s religions. Not one that has driven CIVILIZATION.
Some of the fears that the followers of Islam have are exactly the same as the fundamentalist Christians. Can’t they get together on some things or do we have to relive the crudades?? What is the total body count since 9/11? Have we improved anything yet? How much time, money, and life has been wasted? Who is profiting??
Richard -
I stand by my previous point, namely, one does not elicit cartoons of the Holocaust as a reasoned response to the offending cartoons – particularly when it was not Jewish people who made them to begin with! The Holocaust is a historical fact/truism of horrific proportions. Islam, Allah, Mohammed – they are religious beliefs/concepts. They are not equivalent in an objective analysis. Subjectively, of course, it would appear many Muslims wish to make them equivalent.
Ironically, Mohammed has been depicted in artwork before and, in fact, nothing in the Koran explicitly forbids his depiction. It is the addition of the bombs and allusions to virgins, etc. which makes them less then savory. Many a cartoon has poked fun at Christ/God/Buddha, Hindi gods – I have not been aware of global riots.
In fact, the response from the Muslim community merely begs the question: Why are the Muslims so anti-Semitic? It was a bunch of Danes who did the cartoons, so why respond by asking people to make cartoons of the Holocaust? It is neither a Koranic nor rational response; sadly, it seems entirely fitting of the Muslim mind-set to respond as many have.
In the end, what is truly striking is how little humor the Muslim community has. We need to understand what has brought so many of them to this point but not at the expense of allowing this behavior.
Caryn, you’re so missing the point! Of course publishing Holocaust cartoons is not a ‘reasoned response.’ But neither was posting the Muhammed cartoons in the first place. How is anything connected with this controversy “reasoned” & why would you expect it to be? You mean to say that if Muslims feel deeply insulted you require them to provide a “reasoned response?” That’s mighty white of you. Would it be nice if they did respond in a measured way to the insult? Of course. But do you or anyone else have a right to tell them the right and wrong way to protest? No. The only exception I would make to this is that I believe that no Muslim has a right to engage in violence to express whatever outrage they might feel. That IS beyond the pale.
And you’re way off base in your comparison of the Holocaust & Islam. Our identity as Jews is infused with the horrible experience of the Holocaust. Of course, it’s a central feature of our identity. And you mean to tell me you think that the concept of Allah & Muhammed are no less central to Muslim identity? You don’t think a Muslim who feels his religious identity has been trampled upon has a right to feel as incensed by the Jyllands Posten cartoons & you & I feel about the Holocaust cartoons? If so, I’m afraid you have a serious empathy deficit. You have great empathy for the suffering of your own people but very little for non-Jews (or specifically Muslims). That’s very unfortunate.
And Caryn, you have directly contradicted your statement fr a previous comment in which you claim you do not indict all Muslims for the worst behavior shown in recent weeks within that community. You wrote in yr last comment:
These are precisely the type of sweeping anti-Muslim generalizations you claimed earlier that you eschewed. I guess old prejudices die hard.
Of course we all have a right to protest – I never said we couldn’t. Remember freedom of movement and expression? But not to terrorize (fatwas, beheadings, rioting, retaliatory cartoons) those who do not agree with our views. And the Jews are not “my people.” I am not Jewish (marriage name). I have no religious affiliation, thanks be to Allah.
Caryn: Sorry to have presumed you are Jewish.
I’m with you about the fatwas, beheadings (though I think you’re confusing incidents which happened in Iraq, with Muslim response to the cartoons & we really should keep those separate because beheadings are not specifically a religious response–the people doing them are political insurgents opposed to the U.S. occupation) & rioting. But how do ‘cartoons’ constitute terror? I think your language is unfortunately imprecise here.
Friends,
I am an Anglican pastor from india writing this comment to offer my prayers to the muslim brothers and sisters around the globe and the family of the cartooniost. May God give peace to both groups.
We need to have freedom to express our ideas. But our expressions should not insult or provocate others. Believers are very sensitive. Even if they do not go to church or mosque if an issue come against their religion they will take arms and ammunitions.This being a reality, artists and men of letters should know this before publish anything that come to their thinking realm.
Here i would like to offer my prayers to entire muslim brothers all over the world and the family of the cartoonist, who is crying due to the situation.
Rev. Alex P Oommen
I’m over and out. You (this website) lost a moderate (registered Independent) amongst this dribble/American crap.
And the sad thing is: I’m a 42 year old mother,2 kids (9/11). Go sacrifice your own children. (Don’t even start: I had family that served in both WWI and WWI and Vietam).
Caryn: Well, you may indeed be a “moderate” on some or most political issues. But you’re not on this one:
That’s not a “moderate” response to this controversy. Not in my book. It’s a knee-jerk reaction completely in line with that of many right-wingers (Jews included) represented by the likes of Little Green Footballs, etc.
I have 3 children myself & for the life of me I can’t make hide nor hair of what you mean by “go sacrifice your own children” in this context. It’s a non sequitur. Do you mean to say that by not denouncing all Muslims for being violent and intolerant somehow this means we’ll be fighting a war against Islam? If so, you’re a seriously deluded individual. If you meant something else, you’ll have to explain yourself a little better.
This site isn’t for everyone. It’s for people who want to be challenged and questioned about their values and ideas. If my own approach threatens your equanimity then by all means go where you’ll feel safe and secure (albeit unchallenged).
I stand by what I stated before. Richard, I’m afraid you are too much of an apologist. (You protesteth too much.) Please do not mistake me for Sean Hannity, Mike Savage or Bill O’ Reilly. I am looking for people who can discuss the issues with candid, clear, non-agenda minds. The Muslim world, in general, is angry, disenfranchised, irrational, and – to put it mildly – not for women’s equality. What other language encourages commiting suicide with the promise of virgins in Heaven?! If you’re going to commit suicide, for Allah’s sake, do it knowing you get nothing in Heaven remotely identifiable as 20 virgins.
Dear Caryn,
I can understand why you would feel the way that you do about Muslims in general; if my only exposure to what Muslims are like was the actions of extremists that are reported in the papers, I’d probably feel that way too. However, as a Muslim myself, I can say that the riots, suicide bombings, etc that you read and hear about are NOT representative of Muslims as a whole and are also not acceptable in Islam, as those Muslims who are sincere followers of the Qur’an (and not blinded by political propogandists) well know. But most people in America don’t know any Muslims personally–and I’d guess that is the case here–and would have no way of knowing this.
As for being moderate, I have to say that between you and Richard, you sound quite a bit more tempestuous. And in my experience (and that includes within the Muslim community), those who yell the loudest tend to be the least moderate.
Purvis -
I am well acquainted with the Muslim world having travelled extensively in Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, Turkey (Muslin not Arab) and, at some point, dated several Muslim men. You and Richard have alternately assumed I was Jewish and then not familiar with Muslims…Again, I stand by my previous statements which were not “yelled.”
The present state of Islam in general (yes, I know there are peaceful Muslims) is a mess. For that matter, the present state of Catholocism and Christianity is a mess. Faith and morality should come from within not from books written by men. Scary stuff I know.
Caryn
I never mistook you for them. None of them would acknowledge the possibility that some Muslims might NOT be terrorists. At least you do. As for the last sentence you wrote above–what you are really looking for is people who’ve made up their minds that the Muslims are the bad guys in this controversy and that no other parties share any responsibility. There are whole hosts of people out there who share your views so you’ll be able to make ea. other entirely smug & self-satisfied that you know who’s to blame & that it isn’t us.
That’s an entirely defensive, insulting & wholly inaccurate picture of the Muslim world & shows you are indeed ignorant of the remaining 90% that doesn’t fit yr stereotype.
I hope you meant “religion” above when you wrote “language” otherwise your statement is nonsensical. Many religions contend that when you defend your religion with your life (by losing it) that you will receive a heavenly reward. Judaism is but one. There are some moving stories in the Talmud of Roman era rabbis who deliberately threw themselves in the way of death to protect their fellow rabbis and students.
Again, ignorant, offensive & patently wrong. There are elements of Islam you don’t like–fine. I feel the same way. But I don’t make sweeping & stupid statements like this one to denounce the entire (“Islam in general”) religion. Only an Arab-hater (though I”m certain you wouldn’t identify yourself as such) would think & speak this way.
As for yr travels in Arab lands, foreign travel is critical for Americans to understand that there is a world out there aside from us. I’m glad to hear of yr interest in visiting those places. But some people (& you would appear to be one) may travel 10,000 miles fr. home and their ideas and attitudes about the world remain stuck in the same old rut.
Richard –
In reflecting on your reactions/comments from two months ago, it appears to me they are from someone who is trying to be an apologist and a globalist – which (at least to me) satisfies no one. To state I am stuck in a rut is fabuous – it’s a personal insult and easily thrown out there.
I am terribly okay with stating Islam is a mess, which many Muslims (especially the educated women who have left their countries) would agree is the case. If, in fact, you have lived and worked in a Muslim country you would understand better what I have stated – particularly as a woman.
Best – Caryn
I didn’t know being a “globalist” was a sin. Actually, I take it as a compliment. But I have no idea what you mean by the term since you use it w/o explaining your meaning. As for being an “apologist,” given that you detest Islam so you WOULD think I was an apologist for it. I am not an apologist for Islam. But I am an ardent opponent of religious intolerance & bigotry. You are guilty of gross oversimiplification & overgeneralization about Islam which rises to the level of intolerance. So of course you’d see me as an apologist. But you’d be wrong.
I am strongly in favor of those practitioners of Islam who oppress women changing changing their beliefs toward women. I am in favor of any religion which oppresses women reforming itself. But I am not in favor of singling out Islam for opprobrium to the exclusion of all others. All religions have issues in which they are deficient and should change.
I never stated nor implied being a globalist was a “sin” and you surely know the meaning of the word – I am not imprecise in this regard. And, if you recall from one of my earlier e-mails, I stated that the present (and past?) state of Catholocism and Christianity are also a mess. I do believe I made myself clear in being anti-religion, in so far as religion breeds intolerance. Certainly Islam, as it is today, is extremely intolerant. It is not the religion of the Koran and almost all of the current, documented behavior in the Muslim community cannot be justified within the Koran text. I have said the same of other religions when warranted. No one speaks for God.
What’s wrong with being a globalist? You are vague & imprecise in terms of not making clear your usage of the term.
Ah, here is the crux of our disagreement. This is the statement of someone who has but a cursory,superficial familiarity with religion. Religions are like all other human belief systems. They contain ideas. Some of them are worthy & progressive. Some of them are retrograde and hateful. Religions, like all belief systems, change as humans change. We are entitled to observe the aspects of our religions which we cherish and to discard or scorn aspects we detest. Islam is like any other religion in this regard. Some religions are profoundly tolerant or at least contain intellectual/theological trends that are tolerant. I do not throw an entire religion out with the bath water simply because there is an idea or set of ideas within it which I find repellent.
There is no true religion and no one should forget that this Life is not a rehersal but the only chance we have on Earth. Death is an unknown and no religion can tell or fortell what happens after death. Life is precious and any religion that espouses otherwise is evil. And any religion that demeans the value of life should be avoided. I have reviewed our “conversation” from last year and I stand by my views; unfortunately, Iraq simply magnifies my horrowrof Islam and religious sectarian violence.
Islam does not “espouse” that life is NOT precious. Any view by a non-Muslim that it DOES is based on ignorance at best & willful calumny at worst. Which is it with you? Little bit of both I’d say.
I can see that in the passing of that year you have not alas grown in wisdom, compassion or knowledge of Islam.
I see, Iraq is the only nation guilty of sectarian violence. What of Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland (only a few yrs. ago), or even the Israeli Palestinian conflict (not sectarian but certainly inter-religious violence), to mention but a few. And you think that Islam is the only religion involved in sectarian violence? Gimme a break.
Islam, as do other religions, say/preach one thing and practice another, including – no doubt – Islam. I have been consistent: no religion rises above another and should cast a shadow on the freedom of any individual. Religions should be a private matter, not a public/governmental matter. And no person deserves to die at the hand(s) of others because of a lack of or affiliation to a particular belief. Cartoons are freedom of speech whether we like them or not; but that gives no one the right to irrationally engage in threats, harm, fatwas, etc. against those that exercise this freedom. Sri Lanka, Ireland (No.), Palestine, Darfur, South Africa, Bosnia, Vietnam, etc. – what is your point?! The dignity of humankind suffers from any type of dehumanization (which religion does/has done time and time again). Propose a solution since these times require large minds.
You seem to have enlarged your former attack on Islam to include all religions. As usual you overgeneralize. Yes, religions have brought dehumanization to humankind as have many other forms of human endeavor. Reserving yr opprobrium for religion alone is misplaced.