Have YOU ever looked at the archives at LGF prior to 9/11?

Busy today., but I will look for Irene Khan…all over

I don’t particularly want to go swimming in that swamp today.

PS Any answer to the difference between the BNP’s website and Charles Johnson’s?

They are of course and so is Mr Johnson. Remember Amnesty International calling Guantanamo the Gulag of our time? What was Mr Johnson’s first reaction. He questioned the motivation and the religion of the spokesperson on the basis of her name. He assumed that because she had a Islamic sounding name that she was driven by some sort of Jihadi mission (despite AI’s harsh criticism of Islamic states and the person in questions record of standing up for women’s rights in both the Islamic world and in other nations). Mr Johnson is a bigot. Feeding a large pool of bigots.

I don’t care how many Arab forums you participate in or how well you believe you understand Islam, you only understand it through you own distorted lens. That is not a clear lens, but a clouded one.

Sorry fellah, but after that experience I ’sat down’ with a mullah and 2 imams. If my lens is distorted it’s theirs as well. “It’s the salafis, stupid” They were very frank, no threatening and all three tried to convince of the rightness and goodness of the Message. I understand.
THEY have the quran on their side, and the only muslims on ours will be those whose conscience forbids the actions the quran prescribes.
That is why when a muslim demonstration against terrorism was organized to great fanfare, less than 50 people showed up, or is this new information?
That is why the Al-Sheikh family in KSA (the DIRECT descendent of Ibn Wahab who CONTROL religious theory) continues to promote malignancy aligned with the muslim brotherhood (whose branch in Palestine is known as HAMAS)
I cite fact and you say my lens is distorted.
WHAT HAVE YOU READ, DONE, UNDERSTOOD? Have you read Qutb, Azzam?

Have you read all of 5:32 or do you think the Quran actually says ‘killing 1 man is like killing the universe’?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html
Take your pick and find quranic dissimulation for yourself. That’s not out of contest, what we are TOLD is out of context. The whole quran, senna and hadiths are there, read it (if you can)

Maybe YOU have sat down with Bat Yeor to discuss how it IS
When faced by inconvenient facts your response is simply…your ideas are distorted?

First, HAMAS does not control the Palestinian agenda, the PA does. Or that is it will until it immolates itself by the fire of its own incompetence & the Israeli governments utter unwillingness to aid a legitimate partner.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/11/international/middleeast/11palestinians_iht.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1136983060-hlIiVo1xCyTnamSHiZnM4A
The PA can’t get the dog catcher out to catch dogs, get it?
The PA are the guys with no Israel on the map as well
The PA are the guys teaching 9 year old kids it’s good to be a martyr on KIDS TV SHOWS
They are NOT like the United Mine Worker’s Union holding out for a better deal.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060114/pl_nm/mideast_un_usa_dc
But you are correct that HAMAS is regarded as honest. They are, and among other things they honestly are required by their religion to make all jews and Christians .. dhimmis, gone, or dead.
Just ask the Mayor of Bethlehem, who is going to have to pay the Jizya since HAMAS now runs the city. Anyone reading this who doesn’t know what jizya is, shame on you.
The PA is almost certainly done. HAMAS will take 35-40%, and may be the formative agent in the next govt. Either way unless there is an Arab Altalena, Israeli parallels would have had Irgun and the Stern gang in control in 1948 which is why Ben Gurion ordered Rabin to attack the ship (and Begin).
There can be no compromise with HAMAS. There is nothing to discuss. That’s not me saying it, it’s them. It’s Abdullah Azzam saying it. It’s their charter saying it.
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
Don’t take my word, read it yourself.
…………………………….
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

“The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ”

“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

The only hope for peace is that the palestinian people finally reject terrorism (as being counterproductive to their own needs), and accept that Israel is going to be there beyond the idea of HUDNA (which you also ignore)
This will never happen as long as HAMAS exists (unless they become a vestigial KKK which will require public and private excoriation, and real action)

And btw, if the PA & HAMAS are not partners, who is?

NO ONE, and that is the problem PRECISELY.
Sometimes the best thing you can do, the least expensive in lives(all lives) and treasure is to WAIT. Therefore, btw, the WALL.
……………………………

Frankly I really don’t care about Chomsky’s religion, and never thought about it. I HAVE thought about his ideas about reality, and I reject his totally socialist, dictatorial, venomous views utterly.
His incredible dissimulation when caught LIVE by Mr Dershowitz lying about his book dedication for Faurisson was one of the most disgusting episodes I have ever seen.
He’s a very talented linguist, and a hypocrite par excellence, which is why this believer in social justice and socialism charges for downloads from his site (which are freely available elsewhere), and still tells the NYT this is best country on earth
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/02/magazine/02QUESTIONS.html?ex=1136350800&en=e9d30c6bd1cdf355&ei=5070
http://www.jbooks.com/interviews/index/IP_Dershowitz.htm#_edn20
Chomsky, who finds us montrous from inception, won’t leave because he ACTUALLY believes Lincoln (that we are the last best hope), but criminals all?
His STUPID treatise on preventative/preemptive war IS the reason for my username. The greatest refutation of that idiocy imaginable.

You seem to debate on feelings not facts.

btw, as to your left handed admission of lack of racism on the part of Mr Johnson’s quotes (why is he stirring up his readers) …WHY IS MEMRI?
They do they same thing don’t they? They quote ‘moderate’ muslims with the same kind of frequency, don’t they? Or are they as distasteful as well?
FINIS

No peace is currently possible thru any kind of negotiations since HAMAS finds Israel is by quranic definition, IMPOSSIBLE.

I don’t care how many Arab forums you participate in or how well you believe you understand Islam, you only understand it through you own distorted lens. That is not a clear lens, but a clouded one.

First, Hamas does not control the Palestinian agenda, the PA does. Or that is it will until it immolates itself by the fire of its own incompetence & the Israeli governments utter unwillingness to aid a legitimate partner.

It is a muslim waqf, and the quran is immutable and the perfect word of god.

Yet another dreary distortion by contending that what the Palestinians believe about the current political situation is dictated by the Koran. I can’t remember whether I challenged you or another commenter to read my posts about Palestinian public opinion. A minority (though growing) support Hamas. And they do NOT support Hamas because of its interpretation of Koranic doctrine. They support it because it appears honest. It appears able to perform social services. It appears to be against corruption & lawlessness. It appears able to do everything that Fatah is not able to do. If Hamas wins the upcoming election it will not because of Islam but because of political utility. The party that gets things done will win. Not the party with the right doctrine.

This doesn’t mean Israel doesn’t try to find a partner

There IS a partner, just not one you like. And btw, if the PA & Hamas are not partners, who is? Perhaps we should bring back the Village Leagues, Israel’s first attempt to create a wedge against Fatah in the 1980s? It’s 2nd attempt was a little too successful–Hamas. Yes, Israel helped create Hamas. You don’t hear the Shin Bet bragging about that ‘beautiful’ idea.

It merely recongnizes the impossibility of peace with palestinians

This is utter cynicism of the darkest kind. It only means that thousands more Israelis & Palestinians will die because of self-defeating prophecies like this one.

Only 2 states can be a solution

I see. You want Palestinians to have a state of their own, but don’t believe in negotiations toward that goal. Sounds sensible to me.

4) Since 1936, the arabs who happen to be in the Trans-Jordan, have at every chance to have a peace, rejected it because of what HAMAS stands for. It is RELIGIOUS, not politcal. This makes any long term solution tenuous if possible at all. I OBSERVE this fact.

DR has pointed out to you already that what you see are facts are merely opinions, yours. And they’re opinions not borne out by history. First, do you understand the difference between nationalism and religion? There was hardly an Islamic element to the Palestinian cause until that Israeli creation called Hamas came along. The Palestinians before then were nationalists & their opposition to Israel was based on nationalism.

And your understanding of religious tradition is completely impoverished. You incorrectly view Islam as an immutable religion. It is not. No religion is. Some are more stubborn and hopelessly immobile (viz. Catholic Church) than others. But none are immutable. Not only that, but Islam itself is not the monolith you make it out to be. You are merely using the religion as a strawman to justify your lack of belief and trust in the peace process.

I simply WARN him about Finklestein. If he holds the views he claims to espouse he will find Finklestein as execrable as I do.

Why do you and so many others who came to comment on the JIBA posts seem to have so much advice for me on what I should read or think? I don’t need you to warn me about anything or anyone. Frankly, IF Finklestein IS execrable, then Dershowitz is far worse. Besides being a liar, he is a two faced turncoat from his own expressed beliefs. Did you know that several decades ago he used to defend the civil rights of Israeli Arabs in courts? Then he was a man I could believe in. Now he just bloviates on cable news. While his views on U.S. domestic politics are generally congenial to mine, on Israeli politics he’s an AIPAC apologist for hardline Israeli policies. Oh, and did I mention he was an egomaniac with delusions of grandeur (his own)?

Finkelstein and Noam consipired with each other to accuse Mr. Dershowitz of plagiarism

What is it about Noam Chomsky that so gets under some Jews’ skin? It’s like he’s the old turncoat Jew who converted to Christianity and denounced his former co-religionists. It reminds me of how the Amsterdam Jewish community treated Baruch Spinoza. He had ideas that deviated from normative Judaism, therefore they excommunicated him. Made him persona non grata. Now, guess whose ideas are known the world over? Whose name do you remember, Spinoza’s or the rabbi who signed the herem decree?

I’m not saying Chomsky is a Spinoza. But the community’s treatment is not very dissimilar. Got news for you. Jews don’t have to believe the same thing. We can even each believe things diametrically opposite from our Jewish neigbors. Unlike you, I welcome Noam Chomsky into my Jewish community. I don’t agree with him on the Mideast. But he belongs among us as much as Aussie Dave and his readers.

I wish Richard would explain why he ‘despises’ Dershowitz. That is why FInkelstein was mentioned, it mimics exactly the word Finkelstein (a darling of the arabs) uses

Well, gosh golly, I’m guilty. Because I said I despise Dershowitz that MUST mean I have precisely the same beliefs as Finkelstein about Dershowitz and the Mideast. Now doesn’t it?

Finklestein had every right to accuse Dershowitz of plagiarism and sloppy writing. Having read ‘The Case for Israel’. Norman Finkelstein makes many valid points. I disagree with him on many aspects of his work, for example some of his writings of the Holocaust ‘industry’, but I don’t forgive Dershowitz of his errors simply because he opposes Finkelstein. Wether Finkelstein and Chomskey conspired is debatable, but the fact thaat Dershowitz not only seemed to plagiarize, research badly and get important figures wrong is undisputable. Even he admits to using the sources, making the errors and in part badly researching certain facts. He also mis-represents B’Tselem on many occasions, a charge that he stil denies, but it’s in his book in black and white.

LGF’s problem is that Charles posts, post after post of copy and pasted news articles with the intent of stirring his commentators up. No matter the authenticity or the relevance, as long as a negative spin can be put on the Islamic faith as a whole he does it. While I agree that comments section can be written off as meaningless, if Charles want’s to distance himself from the extremists on his site……then pointing out extremists in other peoples comments section is a tad hypocritical. In answer to your points.

1) And what’s wrong with that? Are you suggesting that Israeli Arabs are stripped of their right to vote/participate/legislate in the Israeli democratic process?

2) Peace is never impossible. If it was we may as well all commit suicide now. Peace is possible, dialogue needs to be sought. Clear instruction and aid from the US, UN and the rest of the world including concessions by both Israelis and Palestinians is needed.

3) Agree totally. The Palestinian Administration needs to be afforded the same rights to exist and develop as a new nation as Israel has. Israel needs to be afforded the right to exist and to be terrorist free from the fledgling Palestinian States also, it’s a difficult situation but it’s something that must be solved. The ‘old LGF comments section’ answer of transfering them or less politely killin the ‘ragheads’ is and never was the answer.

4) Did Hamas exist in 1936? The Arabs have had the chance for peace, and so have the Israelis. Many opportunities have been squandered by both sides. Looking forward is the answer not looking at the failures of the past and apportioning blame. Peace is possible. That is my opinion. Your opinion is the opposite. Don’t call it a FACT because neither of us can claim that.