Pajamas Media’s Tilt Toward Israeli Right « Tikun Olam-תיקון עולם: Make the World a Better Place

Pajamas Media’s Tilt Toward Israeli Right

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44 Responses to “Pajamas Media’s Tilt Toward Israeli Right”

Andrew Schamess says:

October 21, 2005 at 5:09 AM

Good post, Richard!

The hasbara crowd has been very adept at getting its point of view out on the web. They all link to each other and they seem to spawn new sites every day, basically echoing the same tired arguments. But their sheer numbers get them high Google ranks etc. Look at the (speaking of the Sifrys) Technorati incoming links of some of these sites.

What’s sad to me is that we over here on the left can’t seem to mount an equivalent coordinated strategy. We probably will never have the money behind us that Johnson, etc. do. But when people like you try to organize a collaborative project, half the left-leaning israel-plaestine bloggers don’t even answer your emails.

I don’t mean to sound a sour note – rather, I’m hoping that by making this observation, I’ll provoke some discussion. Should we have our own pajama party? In other words, would there be an interest in a similar sort of collaborative site that’s more progressive? Would other bloggers be willing to participate?

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In Vino Veritas says:

October 21, 2005 at 7:11 AM

Greetings, brilliant post. I am struck by the fact what we believe, here in America, to be pretty mainstream in Israel, i.e., the thinking of the like of LGF and Ledeen, etc., is actually not so.

In other words, from reading blogs that have some Israel compnent (LGF, Atlas Shrugs, Protein Wisdom), one would think that all Israelis wish to exterminate Palesitnians or that all Israelis react to criticism of Israel with shrieks of “Anti-Semite” or that all Israelis believe “moderate” Muslims to be a myth.

The question then is, why haven’t progressive Israelis also made their voice heard. Why is there not a counter to the hate that emanates from these blogs? The progressive blogosphere in the States is light years ahead of the conservatives in terms of readership,

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Jeff G says:

October 21, 2005 at 9:45 AM

It’s “protein wisdom,” you self-congratulatory windbag.

And you know nothing about my site. Nothing. So using it as a data point in your ludicrous conspiracy narrative is laughable.

Incidentally, for someone who so self-righteously expresses a desire for peace and reconciliation to write, without even a hint of irony, “I wonder how [David Corn and Marc Cooper] can stand to be in the company of some of these [pro-Israeli] bloggers” — well, I think that speaks to the black little smudge in your own hyper-judgmental soul, don’t you, Dick?

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The Poor Man Institute » There is so much fucking love in my heart says:

October 21, 2005 at 3:58 PM

[...] There’s much, much more for those of you who like bitchy inside baseball gossip, and the sweet baby Jesus knows I do. His main point appears to be that PM won’t make any money. Micah L. Sifry explains: I like that the site is catholic enough to include some divergent voices, but a quick glance at its overall contributor list shows one obvious ideological tilt, one that won’t make the hawks in Israel’s Likud party or their neo-con friends here unhappy. No word on who exactly is bankrolling this new venture, but my guess is it’s someone who wants more “pro-Israel” voices out there. [More here -Ed.] One person’s bias is another person’s market opportunity, I guess. [...]

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 21, 2005 at 4:21 PM

Indeed, you’re right, Andrew. When you & I first thought of http://israelpalestineforum.com/ I found that most of the progressive Jewish bloggers I approached never replied, which mystified me. But we all know how hard it is to organize among progressives. They’re like a herd of wild elephants w. ea. having a diff. perspective or agenda.

You’re not striking a sour note. You’re merely speaking the truth. I wish it were diff. but it isn’t.

As I already wrote you in a private e mail, I’m game for this. Dan Siedarski of jewschool has already thought of the idea. I don’t know whether he wants to do this on his own or with partners. If the latter, I’ve volunteered myself. We’ll see how this goes. Dan already has multiple blogs with advertising so he’s a good one to start this thing.

I wonder how wide one would cast the net? I’d vote for a wide net. I think Dan’s perhaps thinking of a specifically progressive Jewish blog group. Personally, I’d like to include progressive Palestinian & Arab American bloggers too (or at least add a blog section for them since we don’t hear their voice enough either in the world or on the web). I’d also like to include non-Jewish progressives who blog about Jewish issues or the Mideast. I’m thinking of someone like Juan Cole (just using him as an example). What do you think on this question?

Another issue here is that someone (or “someones”) has/have to sit & choose which posts are featured at the main site, which requires some extensive reading through multiple blogs to find the best ones. And that could be time-consuming. Not to mention all the technical issues that may be involved in getting this to work. An interesting set of issues/opportunities…

I think I’ll write a separate post about this to see if I can generate some discussion.

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jerry says:

October 21, 2005 at 4:42 PM

I know I am not the only Jew that looks twice when a non-Jew proclaims himself a great friend of Israel and the Jews. And when these hate filled bloggers post Israeli flags on their blogs, it truly scares me. With friends like that….

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 21, 2005 at 4:46 PM

I was wondering how long it would take for Charles & his minions to discover this post. The answer…not very long!

Jeff Goldstein is right about only one thing in his comment. I did misspell his blog name due to writing this post at 2 AM. I guess Jeff never makes any mistakes in his blog.

As for my being “self-congratulatory” in my post. I think Jeff’s getting carried away with his rhetoric. The post doesn’t congratulate me or anyone else. It casts a critical eye at bloggers like Jeff and, poor boy, he doesn’t like that.

As for criticizing Corn & Cooper for wishing to affiliate with scoundrels like Michael Ledeen–what person with moral grounding would feel comfortable being associated with someone who states:

“Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show we mean business”

…Not to mention all the hate-spewers I’ve featured in this post.

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djangone says:

October 21, 2005 at 5:11 PM

It’s all tied up in one thing: soap. You heard me right, simple hand soap. The insidious conspiracy works like this: As people read what’s on PJM, they invariably end up feeling filthy. They all come away saying they need to take showers. So Simon, Chuckie, Ledeen and his radical right Israeli backers take out enough call options on Unilever and other soap mfgrs to corner the market. Kaching! They mop up on all the sudsing going on.

Me, I’s stocking up on Zest NOW.

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The Liberal Avenger says:

October 21, 2005 at 7:50 PM

Great post. Nice roundup.

Don’t forget LaShawn Barber – Mexican Hater

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Elmo says:

October 21, 2005 at 10:47 PM

Oh sh*t.

Well, there is anger and disappointment. A feeling that the world twiddles, while militant radical Islamists dream of death and destruction. And fear that doing nothing will allow greater death. Is the threat real? Is alarm unwarranted? Well, certainly some of the 9/11murderers did appear as blip/s on radar screen/s. And nothing was done.

The volume of Middle East media, daily pounding intolerance and hatred of Israel and Jews. Could only be denied, by someone either not wanting/caring to see, or unable to see. And in plain view, it grows in isolated segments in America.

I can very much agree, that the strength and circularity of thought exhibited stateside by the right. Can at times exponentially crowd out all other thought. All other views. Entire. And certainly one could argue, that in and of itself, is a sign of a lack of sophistication.

I don’t know what people thought and felt during wartime in the 1940′s, here in the U.S., or in Europe. I know today, waiting idly to counter possible threats can have the gravest of consequences. Ones not wanting to be imagined. Heretofore unknown. Does this mean that peace is alien to the right, the word being lifeless, possibly.

But idealism, may be the greater gamble. Many on the right feel betrayed by the continuing
inability of those holding guns in Gaza, and the West Bank, to simply lay them down. When they too, like me, once believed in the word peace. Once holding it dear.

There is a time for war. Arguing about arguing about it? KInd of weird. Yet it seems many do it. Strange that.

Peace will get here when it gets here, Elmo.

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Ed Marshall says:

October 22, 2005 at 1:59 AM

I wonder how wide one would cast the net? I’d vote for a wide net. I think Dan’s perhaps thinking of a specifically progressive Jewish blog group. Personally, I’d like to include progressive Palestinian & Arab American bloggers too (or at least add a blog section for them since we don’t hear their voice enough either in the world or on the web). I’d also like to include non-Jewish progressives who blog about Jewish issues or the Mideast. I’m thinking of someone like Juan Cole (just using him as an example). What do you think on this question?

Would never, ever work.

These things inevitably turn into 1950′s style communist party infighting with everyone denouncing everyone else for a range of thoughtcrime.

I read ALEF mailing list sometimes and I will go away amazed at who fights with who and over what. It’s a forum that inevitably degrades itself away from it’s main purpose and finds within itself a nearly biological reaction where the topic turns away from the subject at hand and into an anti-anti-semite snipe hunt with people looking for ideological cover by pointing at someone else and saying “That’s an anti-semite, not me”.

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Ed Marshall says:

October 22, 2005 at 10:37 AM

The volume of Middle East media, daily pounding intolerance and hatred of Israel and Jews. Could only be denied, by someone either not wanting/caring to see, or unable to see. And in plain view, it grows in isolated segments in America.

You see it because you have sawed your skull open,scooped out your brains and replaced them with “news” ” you (used to) get at LGF that has about as much to do with reality concerning Muslims as Der Angriff did about Jews in the 30′s.

That’s about the only WWII concern I see going.

Other than that, the wildly insane idea that doing “something” including killing a (insert really big number) of random Iraqis is not only self-defeating it’s morally repulsive and at the heart of it, terrorism.

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Nell says:

October 22, 2005 at 3:54 PM

Marc Cooper responded to questions about his participation in PJM by saying that he was bringing a left-wing perspective, and with his usual brand of huffiness implied that anyone who raised an eyebrow was being closed-minded. He’s a bud of Roger Simon’s, and loves to bash the left, so his signing on didn’t surprise me. But Corn? ? I really can’t imagine being willing to put one’s name and credibility into something Charles Johnson runs and that includes Michael Ledeen. And whose ideological ‘center’ appears to be Michael Totten! But, hey, let a hundred flowers bloom…

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Dave says:

October 23, 2005 at 12:05 AM

Nice of you to spell it out for me, Silverstein. Shame you can’t even spell the name of my blog

Also lovely how you corrected your post based on my comments, yet did not inform anyone of the updates. Maybe you are not aware of “blog etiquette”, but that is kind of dishonest.

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 23, 2005 at 1:35 AM

Ah, some more of the pajamas-party folks comin’ outa the woodwork. Nice to meet you here, Dave.

Actually, you raised some valid pts. in yr diatribe about my post & I made corrections where they were warranted. I don’t mind if people whose views I oppose actually point out errors whose correction would actually improve my argument. So again I thank you.

As for spelling your blog name wrong, that’s been corrected even before I read your comment. Comes from writing the post at 2 AM. But you know what’s funny, Dave? The fact that I’m sure you’ve never made any similar mistakes in yr. own blog. How do you & Charles have such typoless blogs? Do you proof read each other’s copy?

you corrected your post based on my comments, yet did not inform anyone of the updates. Maybe you are not aware of “blog etiquette”, but that is kind of dishonest.

What’re you smokin’? “Updates?” What updates? “Dishonest?” What’re you on about?

When you write a blog post attacking something I’ve said here (as you did) do you “update” me? Of course you don’t nor do I expect you to. And if God forbid, you should make a mistake in such a post which I note & which you correct–I wouldn’t expect you to update me nor would I call you dishonest for not doing so.

Get a life!

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Dave says:

October 23, 2005 at 8:28 AM

Let me spell it out to you since you are obviously having difficulty with the concept. If you correct your original post, you point out the updated parts. You don’t just rewrite the original post. That is what is meant by “updates”. Look at my post for an example.

As for your new paragraph on me, you are once again far off. Apparently, you have to be a Muslim-hater to support Israel. As for my supposed “utter ignorance” on the palestinians, I challenge you to argue on the facts. I assure you I know a great deal more than you on the topic.

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Elmo says:

October 23, 2005 at 10:19 AM

Thanks for the laugh Ed. No, really.

I remeber a wmv that used to be on the net (if anyone has a current link?). An Israeli woman, talking in the company of her kindergarten age daughter. The child can be seen in the background, fidgeting a little bit during the interview of her mother. The girl covered in those special bandages, used for burn victims. She having been set on fire by an intentional attack on her, via a molotov cocktail.

Her mother speaks of peace. Peace with the Palestinians. As being the only way. I used to watch that video a lot. It always made me cry. The strength of that woman’s belief in the process.

Someone please tell
Abu Sayyaf
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade
Ansar al-Islam
HAMAS
Hizballah
Islamic Jihad
Army of Mohammed
Jemaah Islamiya
al Qaeda

Enjoy your pre-sweetened powdered drink mix.

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 23, 2005 at 10:34 AM

I certainly can get behind Elmo’s message in his above comment. It sounds like a moving video.

However, let’s also remember that the suffering is not one-sided. THere are thousands of Palestinian mothers with children similarly bandaged. Both peoples suffer for the callousness of their respective leaders and those who wield the weapons whether it be Hamas or the IDF.

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 23, 2005 at 10:50 AM

Apparently, you have to be a Muslim-hater to support Israel.

Not at all, though many of the PJM bloggers are. I am a supporter of Israel and do not hate Muslims. I can already hear the derision. But the problem with your views regarding Israel is that there is only one level of support that is legitimate: unconditional. Nuance is not allowed. It’s the same really with neocons like Ledeen regarding the war in Iraq and other issues. You’re either a patriot or a traitor. But that’s certainly not my view.

As for my supposed “utter ignorance” on the palestinians…I assure you I know a great deal more than you on the topic.

Whoa! You’re seriously out there. But I’ll level a challenge for you. Since I’ve already spent some time reading through your blog & know where you stand on a lot of issues, why don’t you spend say 30-60 minutes reading through my blog posts about the Palestinians. Only then would I even be willing to entertain your contention that you know more about the Palestinians than I.

Oh & by the way, could tell me which Palestinian newspapers, websites, books (anything really) you read (please omit any websites or books written by Israeli “collaborators” like Walid Shoebat, etc.)? Surely, you must do serious research to make the claim that you know & understand the Palestinians? Oh & neither LGF nor your own site qualify as sources for this purpose.

In order to “know” the Palestinians you would have to have some minimal level of understanding of them, the way they live, their aspirations, their culture, etc. Only then, are you entitled to make generalizations about them. Your own generalizations betray the utter ignorance I referrred to earlier. And when I spoke above about having some level of understanding of them, I didn’t mean that such study would lead you to empathize or advocate for their position on the IP conflict. You could study them and still be critical (as I am). What you can’t do is make sweeping judgments informed by nothing other than your own prejudices.

As for updates, so you’d like me to maintain my original mistake and have my correction read something like this:

“Isreallycool [Update: Israeellycool]”

If so, you’re really stretching. The styles of bloggers concerning updates are entirely personal & subjective (though I do often add Updates to my posts–just not here). There is no sense of “etiquette” concerning them as you claim. If you’d like to create a new standard you’re free to post it on yr site (maybe you could even make it a rule for all Pajamas sites). Then we’ll see how quickly its embraced by the rest of the blog world.

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Ed Marshall says:

October 23, 2005 at 11:00 AM

As for your new paragraph on me, you are once again far off. Apparently, you have to be a Muslim-hater to support Israel. As for my supposed “utter ignorance” on the palestinians, I challenge you to argue on the facts. I assure you I know a great deal more than you on the topic.

Whatever you know or don’t know, hailing an Israeli collaborator as a “moderate muslim” would be analogous to calling calling say Israel Shamir a “moderate Jew”. If you aren’t drinking the kool-aid it looks batshit crazy because it is no matter if you are an encyclopedia of real, and many most likely fabricated Palestinian crimes.

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Dave says:

October 23, 2005 at 11:56 AM

“But the problem with your views regarding Israel is that there is only one level of support that is legitimate: unconditional”

Baloney. Let’s add “my views” to the long list of things you are totally ignorant of.

“But I’ll level a challenge for you. Since I’ve already spent some time reading through your blog & know where you stand on a lot of issues, why don’t you spend say 30-60 minutes reading through my blog posts about the Palestinians.”

No thanks. I don’t see why I should be punished for rebutting your original post.

“In order to “know” the Palestinians you would have to have some minimal level of understanding of them, the way they live, their aspirations, their culture, etc. Only then, are you entitled to make generalizations about them.”

I have lived amongst them and spoken with them. Pray tell, what sweeping judgments have I made? If you have read my blog, as you have claimed, you would have seen that I distinguish between the terrorists and the ordinary civilians. The only generalization I do make is in relation to their status as a clearly distinguishable people, as opposed to the Arabs of neighboring countries.

“As for updates, so you’d like me to maintain my original mistake and have my correction read something like this:

“Isreallycool [Update: Israeellycool]”

If so, you’re really stretching. The styles of bloggers concerning updates are entirely personal & subjective (though I do often add Updates to my posts–just not here). There is no sense of “etiquette” concerning them as you claim”

I’ll leave aside the fact that your attempted “update” contains another spelling mistake, as well as the fact that you altered much more of your original post. The point is that if someone rebuts a post of yours, correcting the original post directly means that there is no record of the one rebutted. Then there is no scope for discourse. You merely cover up your errors and that’s it. Perhaps you are not so familar with the blogosphere, but this is not how things are done. At least not amongst bloggers unafraid to admit when they have erred.

Ed Marshall,

What palestinian crimes have been fabricated? I suppose it is really Jews getting on buses and blowing them up?

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Ed Marshall says:

October 23, 2005 at 12:15 PM

No, I really have no doubt that Palestinian Arabs have blown themselves up on Israeli buses.

I have no idea what you believe or don’t believe but I can take a really, really, good guess that it hews closely to the standard Israeli narrative which is for the most case ridiculous and self-contradictory.

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 23, 2005 at 4:51 PM

Dave: If conditional support for Israel is legitimate as you seem to say, pls. point me to an instance in which you’re either criticized Israeli policy toward the Palestinians or supported someone who has.

I have lived amongst them and spoken with them.

Well, that’s a start. But what does it mean that you’ve lived amongst them [Palestinians]? In their homes? In their villages? Or (as I suspect) in settlements adjacent to Palestinian villages. If the latter, that does not constitute living amongst them. It constitutes living apart fr. them.

As for having spoken with them: what does that mean? That you spoke with a food vendor while ordering zatar in the Old City? Or that you actually know a Palestinian well enough to converse on a substantive topic or issue?

If you have read my blog…you would have seen that I distinguish between the terrorists and the ordinary civilians.

If you truly do distinguish between them, then tell me whether or not you’re opposed to targeted Israeli assassinations that kill innocent civilians such as the killing of Shehadeh, in which 15 civilians and an entire Gaza apartment building were levelled by a huge bomb in order to kill a single militant. If you were in favor of this action then you do not distinguish between civilians and militants. If you are opposed to it, them I’m delighted and grant that the statement quoted above is correct. But I’m fairly certain of your answer & if I’m right then you in fact do not distinguish between the groups.

No thanks. I don’t see why I should be punished for rebutting your original post.

I spent several hours reviewing the Pajamas Media sites which I reference in this post in order to understand their perspective on the Middle East conflict. But when I ask you to spend 30 minutes reading my blog posts about the conflict so that you’d get a taste of an alternative view to your own–that is poison to you. There in a nutshell you have the problem with neocon type thinking regarding the IP conflict. Each of the PJM bloggers has a closed view of things in the Mideast. I’ve read none of them who are open to ideas other than the ‘pre-approved’ ones represented by LGF. And that’s fine for all of you if you like this way of approaching reality. But you can’t make a pretense of understanding your enemy if you won’t even engage him or her. I note that you are silent in terms of telling me what Palestinian references or resources you use in your blog in order to understand what they believe. So I assume you don’t use any. This (if true) is further proof of your close-mindedness.

The point is that if someone rebuts a post of yours, correcting the original post directly means that there is no record of the one rebutted. Then there is no scope for discourse. You merely cover up your errors and that’s it. Perhaps you are not so familar with the blogosphere, but this is not how things are done. At least not amongst bloggers unafraid to admit when they have erred.

You are entirely wrong in saying “there is no scope for discourse.” We’re having discourse of a sort right now (though I’m not sure either of us in doing much in the way of persuading the other). If what you mean that there is no record of my typos, and you have a need of seeing them in black & white so you can point to them in such a way as to denigrate my argument–well, then you’re right about that.

But I’d like you to answer me this…do you, every time you correct a typo lv. a record of the original mistake? That seems ludicrous to me. But if that’s what you do–hey, hakol l’fi ha-taam (“each according to their taste” as they say in Hebrew).

I have been blogging far longer than you & so don’t need any lessons in the ways of the blog world, thank you. And I’d hardly say that correcting spelling errors in the titles of 2 blogs constitutes “covering up error.” You’re really grasping at straws here.

As for being “unafraid to admit they’ve erred” I corrected typos and said so here. So much for unafraid to admit I’ve erred. And you’ve also not answered my question about whether you’ve ever erred in your own blog. So just who’s the one whose not admitting errors?

Finally, I have neither made, nor had to correct any substantive errors regarding the content of the PJM blogs featured here. Neither have you nor your fellow pajamas partygoers noted any. I’d welcome you or anyone pointing any out.

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Jack says:

October 23, 2005 at 5:00 PM

What I really want to know is what is the problem with this kind of blog. If you buy into the whole “market place of ideas” there is little to no reason why sites like this shouldn’t be allowed.

For that matter I haven’t any problem with sites that mimic my beliefs or antagonize them. If you don’t like it you can ignore it, construct your own or spend time there refuting what they say.

Kind of a silly argument here if you ask me.

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 23, 2005 at 9:47 PM

Jack: No one’s saying the site shouldn’t be “allowed” (wouldn’t that be presumptous?). As someone said above: “let a hundred [I think Mao's original said "a thousand] flowers bloom.

But you miss an essential element of both the Israeli Palestinian conflict and the nature of discussion in the blog world. The guiding principle is not: “you do your thing & I’ll do mine.” A discussion about the ME conflict in the real world or in a blog does not exist in a vacuum. It exists only in relation to other points of view–some agreeing and others disagreeing.

So this debate that you find “silly” is really essential if we are to work through the issues and ever come to some kind of resolution. What we are doing here is a microcosm of what Israeli & Palestinian leaders will have to do if there is ever to be peace. The fact that there is so much disagreement and messy argument here isn’t surprising considering how much hate there is between Israelis & Palestinians.

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Dave says:

October 24, 2005 at 1:43 AM

My response is on my blog.

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Jack says:

October 24, 2005 at 5:01 AM

The guiding principle is not: “you do your thing & I’ll do mine.” That is a niece concept, but it doesn’t always translate real well. When doing your thing is hurting me I am not real interested in listening to you.

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In Vino Veritas says:

October 25, 2005 at 6:49 AM

On Dave’s site, he replies that he has no problem with the killing of civilians to bag a terrorist:

“While I am always opposed to the deliberate killing of innocent people, and saddened by any loss of innocent life, this does not mean that I oppose all targeted killings where innocent people are inadvertently killed. It depends on the situation.”

And with that, I believe Dave has lost any moral authority he claims to hold. “It is better that ten guilty men go free then to let one innocent man be convicted.” I should hope that the threshold for killing innocents is greater than that for simply jailing innocents.

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Richard Silverstein says:

October 25, 2005 at 11:49 AM

Thanks for pointing that out, In Vino Veritas. Indeed, Dave has forfeited any moral authority.

Thanks also for visiting his site to point out this howling statement. I just couldn’t get myself to spend the time going over to his site & reviewing his statements. If he’d been willing to take me up on my suggestion that he spend even 30 mins. here taking a look at how others view the conflict, then I would’ve done so. But he feels that would be poison, then I can’t in good conscience be bothered to spend more time than I already have there.

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hey says:

October 26, 2005 at 10:23 AM

I love when leftists, jews or otherwise, get offended by my support for Israel and my opposition to khalifah/wahabbist/qadrist/salafist groups. because it’s obvious that if you believe in free markets (and are otherwise “conservative” in economic terms) you’re actually an anti-semite who’s using jews for some other purpose.

It can’t be that supporting an honorable people who have been harrowed throughout history and are under siege by groups that proclaim that they want to exterminate jews and drive every jew in israel into the sea is an honorable position. That you are doing it as a mitzvah following along the work of your grandfathers. That you are tied into the jewish community through school, work, love, and community.

No, right wingers are both arab/muslim hates as well as being secret anti-semites. The only true friends of the jewish people are to the left. Despite the actual history of the world, with the wonderful treatment meted out by communist and socialist regimes (Sovs, Arab nations, etc), and by leftist leaders (you know who, and his italian compadre).

You are also libeling the firm, by maintaining that they have some secret backer and are not what they claim to be. I’d have my lawyers ready. But then given your politics, you shouldn’t have any assets or income to attach.

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