26 thoughts on “Kerry Says the “A-word” and Abbas says the “H-Word” – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. Richard. You correctly quote Abbas where he said that, ‘The world must do its utmost to fight racism and injustice in order to bring justice and equality to oppressed people wherever they are.”

    Buy you might have included the next sentence of President Abbas, in which he said, The Palestinian people, who suffer from injustice, oppression and denied freedom and peace, are the first to demand to lift the injustice and racism that befell other peoples subjected to such crimes.’

    Richard. Mahmoud Abbas payed lip service to the unique crime that was the Holocaust but than used to opportunity to comment on Palestinian suffering, as if the Nakba and the Holocaust were somehow equivalent.

    Wasn’t he the guy who did his university dissertation denying that the Holocaust happened?

    1. Abbas did not equate the Nakba and the Shoah. It’s entirely legitimate to notice parallels between injustice and racism against one people and injustice and racism against another, that’s nothing to do with claiming they were equal in scale. In order to conclude that two things are not equal, one must first compare them – but in the case of the Shoah there seems to be a “thought prohibition” – a taboo – in place that postulates it “incomparable” a priori, trying to prevent any learning of lessons not narrowly focused on that specific group of victims. Thus “never again” becomes “never again to the Jews”, and attempts to apply those moral lessons elsewhere get branded as “diminishing the Shoah”.

    2. @ Jackdaw:

      Wasn’t he the guy who did his university dissertation denying that the Holocaust happened?

      No, he wasn’t. But if you read the article to which I linked (which you naturally didn’t) you’d see a discussion of this issue & you wouldn’t have made the gross overgeneralization you did. Personally, I don’t care what he wrote in a dissertation penned decades ago. But whatever he did write he’s renounced publicly. If I was writing a blog 30 years ago I’d probably renounce half the things I wrote in it.

      BTW, Bibi Netanyahu in 1988 called for expulsion of Israeli Palestinians from Israel. He hasn’t renounced those racist views. I bet that doesn’t disturb you.

      Are you claiming that Abbas’ noting that Jews suffered in the Holocaust and Palestinians suffer under Occupation (while clearly stating that the Jewish suffering was “the most heinous of the modern era”) is illegitimate? If it is, it’s only for you and your hasbara pals. The rest of the world doesn’t have a problem with it.

      1. Bringing up Palestinian suffering in a discussion of the Holocaust is inappropriate. The Holocaust was a singular event, sui generis. It can’t be compared to the Armenian Genocide, the Rwandan slaughter or the Cambodian ‘Killing Fields’.

        The Germans suffered during World War 2. Is is appropriate to discuss their suffering in a discussion of the Holocaust.

        Settle down Richard. Take a breath.
        Bibi never said, “Bibi Netanyahu in 1988 called for expulsion of Israeli Palestinians from Israel.”

        He said, ‘.. to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the Territories.’
        Not all Arabs, some Arabs. Not Israeli Arabs either, but Arabs from the ‘ occupied territories’.

        1. Jackdaw: “Bringing up Palestinian suffering in a discussion of the Holocaust is inappropriate. The Holocaust was a singular event, sui generis. It can’t be compared to the Armenian Genocide, the Rwandan slaughter or the Cambodian ‘Killing Fields’”
          OK, I’ll take the bait. What makes the European Jewish Holocaust a “singular event” that “can’t be compared” to any other in history? Can the Armenian Genocide, the Rwandan slaughter or the Cambodian ‘Killing Fields’ be compared with each other, or was each one also a “singular event”?

          Jackdaw: “The Germans suffered during World War 2. Is is appropriate to discuss their suffering in a discussion of the Holocaust.”
          That’s a really bad analogy, because it was the German state that perpetrated the Holocaust.

          Mahmoud Abbas is the acknowledged leader of the Palestinian people, whose oppression and dispossession is often justified by the European Jewish Holocaust. You’ve heard it, I’ve heard it, they’ve certainly heard it. Hence the tendency of Palestinians from all walks of life to be inclined towards the kind of “Holocaust denial” described here by Gilbert (not George) Achcar. Under these circumstances, if you’re the leader of the Palestinian people and you issue a public statement that “what happened to the Jews in the Holocaust is the most heinous crime to have occurred against humanity in the modern era”, you have to acknowledge crimes committed against your own people, or else your people will see you as having completely surrendered to your oppressors.

          1. @Peter

            “OK, I’ll take the bait. What makes the European Jewish Holocaust a “singular event” that “can’t be compared” to any other in history?”

            The Nazi State apparatus was directed at the mass extinction of all Jews, because they were Jews. The Einsatzgruppen was dispatched throughout Europe, the Balkans and even North Africa.

            The Cambodian Killing Fields were directed at the Cambodian bourgeois and anyone else the Khmer Rouge deemed an enemy. The Rawandan slaughter was directed at the (rebellious)Tutsi minority as well as against Hutu ‘moderates’. The Armenian genocide was actually a ‘forced march’ that resulted in the deaths of many, many thousands. It was an act of revenge against the rebellious Armenians.

          2. @ Jackdaw: The Nazis attempted to exterminate the Jewish people of Europe. Rwandan Hutus also attempted to exterminate a tribe just like the Jews, in their country. The Khmer Rouge killing fields exterminated Cambodians from all walks of life from peasants to the wealthy. You don’t have a clue about Cambodian history. Why try to bluff your way through this subject?

            The Armenian genocide resulted in the deaths of “many, many thousands.” More ignorance. Millions died. Not thousands.

            Your ignorance is huge. Your hubris even larger.

          3. So, Jackdaw, all the Tutsi and all the Armenians were “rebellious”? And all the Khmer victims were “bourgeois”? That sounds a lot like the Nazi claim that all Jews were Bolsheviks or fiendish bankers or rootless cosmopolitans out to destroy Western culture, or whatever. Perpetrators of genocide always have an excuse for killing massive numbers of innocent people. You seem to think that some excuses for genocide are better than others. To me it looks like someone arguing that the Tutsi had it coming.

        2. “Bringing up Palestinian suffering in a discussion of the Holocaust is inappropriate” ONLY if you live in glass houses or suffer from ‘chosen people syndrome’!

        3. @ Jackdaw:

          Bringing up Palestinian suffering in a discussion of the Holocaust is inappropriate.

          What you really mean to say is that “bringing up Palestinian suffering” is inappropriate. Which of course is patently ridiculous. Nationalists, whether Jewish or Palestinian have every right to call attention to their cause, whether you approve or not.

          The fact is that a Palestinian leader expressed empathy for Jewish suffering, while also calling attention to the suffering of his own people. Perfectly appropriate…except to hasbarists like you.

          The Holocaust was a singular event, sui generis.

          Nonsense. If anything post-Holocaust history has proven that the human race is prone to genocide and that the extermination of European Jewry is but one genocide among many.

          Bibi never said

          Well, that makes all the difference: he didn’t call for ethnic cleansing of Israeli citizens, ONLY Palestinians from the Territories. And not ALL, but SOME. Thanks for explaining that. I feel better already. He just called for partial ethnic cleansing. Which will merit a partial war crimes charge at the Hague when he carries it out.

          1. Okay lets try this hypothetical.

            During a ‘Nakba Day’ speech, Shimon Peres says that, the Nakba was the national tragedy of the Palestinians’.
            Then Peres adds, ‘but lets not forget how we Jews also suffered during the Holocaust’.

            Appropriate or inappropriate?

          2. @ Jackdaw: Your hypothetical that never was and never will be. How charming. Let’s get Peres to concede Nakba was a national tragedy for the Palestinians and apologize for it. Then, as far as I’m concerned he can say whatever the hell he wants.

          3. @ Jackdaw
            But Abbas’s speech wasn’t made during Holocaust Remembrance Day but in a conversation with a American Rabbi the week before and was an answer to a question, did you forget that ?

    3. “Wasn’t he the guy who did his university dissertation denying that the Holocaust happened?”
      Another propagandist who hasn’t read anything else about Abbas’ doctoral thesis (existing only in Russian and Arabic) than what the Simon Wiesenthal Center has translated (and manipulated…).
      Abbas didn’t deny the Holocaust, he questioned the number of victims but stated “The controversy over the figure cannot minimise in any way the atrocious crimes committed against the Jews”.
      But the main theme of his doctoral thesis was the collaboration between certains elements of the Zionist movement and Nazi Germany in the years prior to the Holocaust, a well-documented fact that most Zionists prefer to deny.

      And talking about denial: where is the Israeli politicians’ – and average populations’ – recognizition of the Nakba, huh ?

  2. I have respect for abbas for making that statement but also hope that ot was not just lip service but a genuine change in official policy. Though nonetheless a very positive and well received statement on my behalf being named after my two great uncles who died in the shoa.

    I have a feeling that bibi is up to something… my guess is if the pnc elections go the ‘wrong way’ then the nefarious plan b will be put into full effect.

    This will more than likely involve annexation of the major settlements and some form of disengagement from the rest of area b. Israel will then unilaterally declare whats left to be Palestine and say that if/when the palestinians are ready to talk his door is open.

    Now if done right Israel will have enough pressure reduced so that it can maintain the new status quo for a few decades.

    Now this is bad news for both sides but I would not put it past bibi to try.

    1. What do you mean by a “genuine change in official policy” ? You think the Palestinians should start commemorate the Jewish genocide or let the Israeli government continue the colonization of Palestine in solidarity with the past suffering of the Jews, the only people who ever suffered as everyone knows….
      That kind of statements is exactly why a lot of Palestiniens don’t want to hear about the Holocaust: because it’s used by Zionist propaganda not only to explain but to justify the Zionist project in Palestine.

      Edward Said made brillaint remarks on the Holocaust denials among certains Arabs in this article:
      http://mondediplo.com/1998/09/04said
      ” Again, let me repeat that I cannot accept the idea that the holocaust excuses Zionism for what it has done to Palestinians: far from it. I say exactly the opposite, that by recognizing the holocaust for the genocidal madness that it was, we can then demand from Israelis and Jews the right to link the holocaust to Zionist injustices towards the Palestinian, link and criticise the link for its hypocrisy and flawed moral logic.”

      1. @ Deir I was actually alluding to both Israel and Palestine on that one. By changing the tone this can go a long way to build faith with the jewish people also it could lead to a change in the Israeli tone to how we interpret our responsibility for the Palestinian Nakba. I am not equating to two as the same but they are similar on how they have changed the national identity for both peoples and mutual recognition of each others pain would go miles IMO.

        Also i think its rather lack of respect when Israel uses the holocaust as a reason for its existence. We have enough reasons to exist as a state without have to guilt the world into accepting us.
        Personally if it were up to me i would use the holocaust as a reason why co-existence is so important and not as a tool for eternal separation…

        1. “I am not equating to two as the same but they are similar on how they have changed the national identity for both peoples and mutual recognition of each others pain would go miles IMO.”
          No, hopefully you’re not equating the two: Palestinians have no responsability whatsoever in the Jewish genocide, though Hasbara makes a great deal of effort blaming the Palestinians: the Mufti al-Husseini who was worse than Hitler or at least as bad, the Palestinian opposition to Jewish immigration to Palestine (that is their taking over the land…) at least indirectly responsible for the genocide etc
          Your ‘recognition of mutual pain’ could be interpreted as a way of trying to make the Palestinians accept their own dispossession. I do not agree with the refusal to discuss/learn about the Holocaust that many Arabs/Palestinians express but I perfectly well understand why. And what do you mean by “coexistence”? A One State-solution from the river to the sea where Jews and Arabs (returning refugees included) live with equal rights ? If that ever become a reality, if justice is implemented, I’m sure Palestinians will commemorate your past tragedies with you.
          I have posted this before but it’s really such a perfect example: Ahmed Tibi’s speech on Holocaust Remembrance Day (Rivlin qualified it as the best speech ever in the Knesset) and Yair Lapid who is only interested in Tibi’s empathy for Jewish suffering, he doesn’t even get what Tibi is saying, not even a sign of recognition of Palestinian sufferings, and that was when he was still a journalist….
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_aR9MkvnRk

          PS. I don’t know if it’s only my internet connection or anyone else, but the avatars seemed to have disappeared so I don’t know if “Ben” is the Canadian Ben who used to comment here or soemone new.

          1. yeah i am the Canadian ben.
            It would be a great injustice to blame the holocaust on the Palestinians i have yet to meet someone who has but to claim thier hands were clean would go to far IMO. Yes they had no direct hand in the deaths of jews but the revolts in the 1930’s forced a cap by the British on how many Jewish refugees were allowed into the mandate each year. That does not go without saying that many countries at the time did not have racist caps on refugees, i.e. the experience of the St.Louis trying to get permits to Canada and America. Though both Canada and America has officially apologised for this. I wonder if there would ever be a leader of Palestine that would acknowledge that due to the actions in the revolts of the 1930’s this indirectly caused untold amounts of Jews to not be permitted into the Mandate of Palestine and inasmuch perish in the holocaust. Much like I wonder if there would ever be a Israeli leader that would acknowledge that due to the actions of the the Haganah/lehi/irgun during the war of independence that there was systematic ethnic cleansing of war zones of Palestinians.

            Is it not racist to say Jewish refugees taking over their land? That reminds me of any nationalist group that does not want immigration… Plus i think the situation pre WWII was much much different then the situation after the 1948 war in regards to dispossession of legally owned land.

            I guess your understanding of why arabs/Palestinians who don’t want to learn about the Holocaust could also be for the Jews who want to not learn about the Nakba. Yes Israel had a big hand in it but no the Jewish people of the world did not. Should i as a Jewish Canadian feel guilt for the disposition of the Palestinians? If so should this not be for any disposed/discriminated people? and if so why single one group over the other if not for political reasons?

            By co-existence I refer to the idea of confederation as a solution. Personally i don’t think the one state solution is operational but i strongly support the idea of confederation as this would be the maxim for sanctification of both sides as stipulated by Daniel J. Elazar in his 1991 essay on the topic seen here http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles/fedconfed-sol.htm.

            I watched the linked video. As of this moment i have great respect and admirations for Tibi. His point is exactly what i am referring to.

          2. @ ben:

            the revolts in the 1930′s forced a cap by the British on how many Jewish refugees were allowed into the mandate

            That’s not historically accurate. There were revolts going back to the early 1920s if I recall correctly. The British restricted Jewish immigration because there were far more Jews who wanted to immigrate than Arabs and the British wanted to maintain a population status quo.

            America ‘officially apologized’ for the St. Louis? What are you talking about?

            I wonder if there would ever be a leader of Palestine that would acknowledge that due to the actions in the revolts of the 1930′s this indirectly caused untold amounts of Jews to not be permitted into the Mandate of Palestine

            THat is sheer nonsense. Please stop spinning such nonsense.

            I so wish that non-historians would stop trying to pretend that they are.

          3. @ Ben
            So you’re the Canadian Ben.
            “Should I as a Canadian Jew…”
            In your earlier comment you wrote “How we interpret our responsability in the Palestinian Nakba”.
            Maybe you should decide what you are…..

            You know as well as I do that this is only about the Israeli Jews and not about world Jewry. If Israelis were Chinese Taoists, do you think anyone would be interested in what Abbas says about the Holocaust ?

    2. @ Ben:

      Now if done right Israel will have enough pressure reduced so that it can maintain the new status quo for a few decades

      How can Israel steal Palestine and you say it could be “done right?” It can’t be. Theft is theft no matter how you package it.

  3. The Nakba and the Shoah have one fact in common. Both consider the “enemy” to be “Untermenschen”.

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