21 thoughts on “Israeli Diplomat Calls Holocaust Survivor ‘Immoral’, ‘Self-Hating’ – Tikun Olam תיקון עולם إصلاح العالم
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  1. You should add to that list of distinguished Jewish figures the author of “The End of Judaism: An Ethical Tradition Betrayed”, Hajo G. Meyer. His book, too, tells the story of how the Zionists treated the Holocaust survivors when they were obliged to immigrate to Israel. More importantly, he “compares Israel’s current policies with the early stages of the Nazi’s persecution of the German Jews.” “……. the possible consequences of a policy that oppresses and marginalizes the Palestinians in their own homeland.”

    The Zionists have co-opted the victims of the Holocaust for their own purposes of oppressing the Palestinians. Any dissident now becomes a self-hating Jew. Alfred Grosser deserves better.

    1. Some of the member of the Jewish world, were better at writing then at taking action. before the foundation of the state of Israel they ended up in crematoriums all over Europe, while the minority resisted and fought back . after the foundation of Israel the theme of most Jews who immigrated became never again, most of the Jews who immigrated to Israel do not share the views of Mr. Hajo G. Meyer. needless to say the he never lived in Israel and after the war stayed in Europe and became a distinguish member of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network.
      what gives him the moral authority to criticize Israel ?

        1. Why ? why is his critic valid
          and the support of other holocaust survivors who support Israel policies isn’t valid ?
          because the others do not reflect your opinion.
          that’s the definition of Hypocrisy isn’t it ?

          1. You only have to read the apologetics of survivors like Wiesel to understand that their moral viewpt., which denies humanity to Palestinians, is suspect. Besides, Elie Wiesel doesn’t need my support since he has a Nobel Prize. But Alfred Grosser, under attack by the MFA needs my support since he is being egregiously smeared.

      1. after the foundation of Israel the theme of most Jews who immigrated became never again

        No, that became the theme of Meir Kahane, not that of “most Jews.” You’re confusing the two & they aren’t the same.

        what gives him the moral authority to criticize Israel ?

        He’s a Jew. You remember kol Yisrael arevim zeh ba’zeh, don’t you? Or are only some Jews (ie. the ones you like) bound up w. other Jews??

        1. The world a la Silverstein
          if you identify with the views of Richard, it’s out of free spirit.
          if you oppose them you are an apologist, an enemy of the human rights movement. etc. etc.
          hey can you handle a real debate ? seems to me that other then attacking peoples personalities, and calling them names, you are not capable of much.

          1. you are not capable of much.

            Funny, I was just thinking the same about you…

            you know nothing about the history of the state of israel

            I know as much or more than you about any Jewish or Zionist subject you’d care to mention. Don’t you question my knowledge, bud. You don’t know what you’re talking about. I know plenty about the Holocaust & pre-State era. Never again was the motto you specifically claimed was the one of survivors & it was not. Now, if you’re arguing that survivors vowed that they wouldn’t suffer the same fate again after the emigrated to Israel, it’s possible that some or many felt that way. But that’s what you wrote initially. In fact, you claimed that the JDL slogan was the one echoed by survivors & it wasn’t.

            as for kol israel…. you weren’t there in Yom Kipur, you didn’t come

            I have no idea what you’re talking about & if you mean what you appear to be saying in yr truncated English then you’re talking out yr a(@. I was in shul on Yom Kippur & don’t need you or anyone to question my Jewishness or Jewish identity. There is NOTHING in Jewish tradition that says I have to agree with this rotten rightist Israeli gov’t or support Occupation. In fact, just the opposite. Jeremiah, Isaiah, Amos and all the rest would be inveighing against horror show were they here to lend their voice to the opposition. Jewish tradition & history is on my side on this I’m afraid. You argue majority rule when it’s convenient to you & the fascists run the show in the Knesset. When my side prevails you’ll argue that it’s incumbent on you to oppose the peace party because yr Jewish conscience forces you to do so. You’re nothing but a hypocrite.

            If you know anyone who knows English better than you I’d recommend you have them edit yr comments are they’re hard to follow. Or you can publish in Hebrew & I’ll translate them for you (even if I disagree w. them!).

          2. You don’t know much about Zionism, saying you do will not change the facts.
            many generations of soldiers were introduced to the motive “never again” way before Kahana founded kach who’s slogan was Rak Kach.
            Kach sign was the sign of the Etzel, which later was changed to what it is today, magen david with the fist.
            you see – you know nothing.

            תנועת כ”ך הוקמה על ידי הרב מאיר כהנא בשנת 1971 זמן קצר לאחר עלייתו לישראל. סיסמתה, “רק כך”, וסמלה של התנועה, ארץ ישראל משני עברי הירדן עם אגרוף קפוץ ורובה, נלקחו במדויק מתנועת האצ”ל. מאוחר יותר שונה הסמל לאגרוף על רקע מגן דוד בעקבות דרישה של ותיקי אצ”ל.
            http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9B%22%D7%9A

            Yom Kipur – i wasn’t referring to your presence at shul, but to the simple fact that you didn’t volunteer for the IDF though you admit the state of israel was attacked, so “erevim ze laze” have no meaning in your eyes, other then a tool to deliver your agenda.

            lately you are covering a lot of ground with holocaust related items, it’s no more then a cheap attempt by someone who lacks the knowledge to acquire more audience, because holocaust sells.

          3. many generations of soldiers were introduced to the motive [sic] “never again” way before Kahana founded kach

            Ah, you don’t mind sticking your foot in it, do you? IDF soldiers were not introduced to the term “Never again,” as you claim. The actual slogan was Sheynit Mesadah lo tipol (“Masada shall not fall twice”). So no, not “never again.” Close, but not the same.

            You see, you know nothing.

            you didn’t volunteer for the IDF though you admit the state of israel was attacked

            You were talking about the Yom Kippur War? If so, why didn’t you say so? Yr English is atrocious. And you’re an idiot besides. YOu think that the way I prove that all Israel is bound up one with another is by volunteering in the 1973 War? Are you nuts? That’s may your definition of Jewish solidarity but not mine. I don’t fight wars. I was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War and wars are not the way to resolve the world’s problems.

            Solidarity is not martial solidarity. Solidarity is spiritual, political, cultural. All these resonate with me. But not wars.

          4. it’s funny how you who leave in Seattle trying to tell me (I was born and raised in israel and served in the IDF more then 9 years) what’s the term IDF soldiers were introduced, like almost any other subject you write on you are mixing items, and you don’t even bother doing minimal due diligence using open sources such as Wikipedia, one big circus.

            שנית מצדה לא תיפול was the term used by Youth Movements in Israel between the years 1920 – 1947 (you can google the term in wikipedia) you can learn of the importance of the the term never again, which was never used by Kach (you stated the opposite mind you) by one picture located on the wall in the office of the IAF commander, which shows a formation of IAF F15 over the concentration camp.
            maybe it’s about time you’ll actually learn something about a subject you write about so much ? (http://web.macam.ac.il/~tamarli/zachirom/t1.htm)

            as for kol israel…. in one of the israeli forum someone published email correspondence he had with you, in which you were unable to distinguish between Rabinu Gershom and Rabinu Tam (key figures in the Jewish world of today) i do not expect someone like you to be able to understand what is the true meaning of “kol israel erevim ze lazo”, the true meaning is the collective responsibility that should exist between the parts of the Jewish nation, by saying i do not fight wars, you are expelling yourself from the rest of the nation which is a huge “avera” so do me a favor, stop waving around your so called “Jewishness”, because you already decided to expel yourself.

          5. you were unable to distinguish between Rabinu Gershom and Rabinu Tam (key figures in the Jewish world of today)

            If you want to try to make someone look like a fool it’s best not to make yrself look like one first. Rabeinu Tam and Gershom lived 1,000 years ago. Not exactly contemporary Jewish figures. And no, it wasn’t that I couldn’t distinguish bet. the 2 of them but that I misattributed a tikun (reform) devised by one to the other. But that’s mere child’s play compared to your blooper. You don’t appear to know much about yr own religion.

            you are expelling yourself from the rest of the nation…you already decided to expel yourself.

            No, actually you just broke such a fundamental comment rule of mine that you expelled yrself from the comment threads here. So long, can’t say it’s been good to know ya.

            You’re kinda like a rank & fetid weed. On your way out would you make you pass along your GIYUS mandate to the next Hasbarist ‘airplane’ landing here. You’d also be doing us all a favor by telling the next new recruits to read the comment rules before commenting. If you guys did that you might last longer.

        2. If that’s what you think then you know nothing about the history of the state of israel, this was the theme of all the jews who immigrated from the ashes of Europe, and that is what made a many of them join the IDF and fight in the war in 1948. Arie’s Biro famous statement was Rifle and Bread = existence. and there were many others.

          as for kol israel…. you weren’t there in Yom Kipur, you didn’t come, Kol israel is accepting the majority will and supporting it even when you don’t agree, being cowered doesn’t excuse you from fulfilling that.

          as for the critic, all i am saying is that his critic as Elie Wiesel’s to whom you refereed to as an apologist. seems like you are resorting to Hypocrisy.

          1. “you know nothing about the history of the state of [I]srael”

            Richard Silverstein is one of the most respected opinions on the State of Israel today. With the internet as his medium, he has written at length with one motive in mind: Tikun Olam. You aren’t the first to attack him for clinging to his humanity and what is, after all, a call to the conscience. You won’t be the last. At the end of the day, there are many of us who will support Richard because he is doing something that is profoundly moral, spectacularly brave, and truly righteous.

            You should want to KIDNAP him to Israel as he has much to teach the rest of you about this world.

      2. What gives him the moral authority to criticize Israel? Righteous indignation, that’s what!

        It’s a moral obligation and responsibility we all have as humans to condemn oppression whenever and wherever it exists.

        I salute every Jew who has the courage to oppose Zionism.

  2. Long live, Alfred Grosser. The man has been through so much and yet he still does not lash out at the world (or a particular people who have seriously done no wrong to deserve their place in history either) like so many others, having been through much less, do. This man is a treasure and I hope he attains (if not already) some sense of happiness, delight or joy before his time is through.

  3. Assuming that Mr. Grosser understands, correctly, that absolutely NO ONE should get a pass on “Never again” – a concept that applies not just to the Jews but to ALL peoples on the receiving end of state violence, including the Palestinians – then that’s all the “moral authority” he needs.

    1. He does understand it. That’s exactly what the Zentralrat der Juden in Deutschland (Organization of German Jews) attacked him for. In their view, to even mention the Palestinians’ suffering at the hands of Israel in any context with the Holocaust is blasphemy.

      Grosser also drew heavy criticism for basically saying that today’s Germans should feel free to criticize Israel and not be shamed into silence by the Auschwitz card.

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